The Steel Guitar Forum

The standard D-10 leaving the factory today is 8 and 4:

<font face="monospace" size="3"><pre>

A B C LKL LKR RKL RKR

F# G
D# D/C#
G# A
E F# F D#
B C# C#
G# A F#
F#
E F D#
D C#
B C#


4 5 6 7 8 RKL RKR

G G#
E F
C D B
A B B Bb
G F#
E Eb
C C#
A B
F F# E
C D A

</pre></font>

I been thinkun bout a guitar that would emulate just about all I have on my U-12 with 6 and 7; only zero in and specialize the B6/E9 tunings into two tunings.

I know, I know, it is supposed to be the other way around, but just for fun, I came up with the following setup that would allow me to play what I do on my U-12; If I had to go back to a double neck.

If that happened the following setup would be required.

Whatcha think?

First, it would HAVE to be a D-11 Setup this way:

<font face="monospace" size="3"><pre>

A B C 4 LKL LKL2 LKV LKR RKL RKL2 RKR

F# * G#
D# E D/C#
G# A G
E F# F D#
B C# C# A Bb
G# A G F#
F# * G#
E F D#
D C#
B C# A Bb
E F
</pre></font>

* slightly lower the F#'s when A is down.

(Note: RKL2 is setup so that when the 2nd string begins to pull, the F#'s are at a G note. This in affect combines two optional knee levers in use to day.)

<font face="monospace" size="3"><pre>

4 5 6 7 8 9 LKL LKL2 LKV LKR RKL RKR

D Eb
G G# **
E D F F
C D D B C#
A Bb B Ab
G F# F **
E D Eb F
C D C# C#
A Bb Ab
F F# E G
C D A

</pre></font>

** slightly lower the G's so the A7th chord is in tune since the A's and E's are cosiderably lower than ET.

(Note: There are splits on BOTH necks wherever it is applicable.)

Ya know what? It still does not get all the changes. I know I know, "ya only need 8 and 4". But me gots all dem changes now . So on second thought, I think I will stick to me U-12, since I am fat, dumb and happy now

God bless ya,

carl<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by C Dixon on 02 March 2004 at 10:29 AM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by C Dixon on 02 March 2004 at 10:32 AM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by C Dixon on 02 March 2004 at 10:33 AM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by C Dixon on 02 March 2004 at 10:34 AM.]</p></FONT>

I've been working on a D-11 copedent these past few weeks, Carl. I'm hoping to buy a new Williams crossover this year. Send me an email and I'll reply with my Excel chart.

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<font size="1"><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax</font>

Carl-Your C6 setup looks very interesting and looks like you have some good pulls and in the RIGHT place to play music.....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Thank you Al,

The setups are a result of over 40 yrs of trial an error (on paper). IE, moving, shifting, trading and changing every conceivable way; to try to come up with most all known changes without having to be a circus contortionist.

There is a very interesting split on the C6 neck that may not be readily apparent. It is RKL and the 9th pedal. If you analyze this split on the 3rd string, it gives you an Eb. But more you have a fantastic "blues" chord staying at the tonic fret; WITH the blues note in the treble part of the chord. Plus, the entire 12 notes (omit 1st string) fit like a glove in blues type playin.

As an example, you can play Steelin the Blues (like JB) in ANY key. I love this split. And use it all the time on my U-12.

IF, there is a better way of getting most all the changes out there, plus all the combinations of changes, I would love to see it. Not saying there isn't, just cannot imagine what it would be.

Oops, those who love 8 and 4 would probably say, one has to be a contortionist to play the above.

Well, some like to pilot a piper Cub. others a boeing 747.

Sorry bout that

carl<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by C Dixon on 02 March 2004 at 02:20 PM.]</p></FONT>

On a D-11 one row of the tuners on the keyhead will have to accomodate six tuners so the whole keyhead has to be longer, so why not add one on the other side and make it a D-12 right away? The weight difference would be minimal I think, but there would be even more possibilities, especially the low G# on the E9th neck is a BIG advantage IMO, depending of course on what you play most.
Just my thoughts.

Joe H.

Jim Baron plays a Fessy D-11.

I don't inderstand why ALL builders don't make an 11 string C6 beck with both the G and D strings.

When I'm playing a descending line on the E9th, I very often end up on the 11th string. It's been a problem when I'm on a 10 string neck.

I suspect that many of those lines could be resolved by the popular 4th pedal that lowers low B to A, but that doesn't help the F lever position which really needs a low G#.

Here's a D-11X chart I've been working on lately: <p align="center"> </p>

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<font size="1"><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax</font>

-<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by rhcarden on 07 March 2004 at 09:21 AM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>"On a D-11 one row of the tuners on the keyhead will have to accomodate six tuners so the whole keyhead has to be longer, so why not add one on the other side and make it a D-12 right away?"</SMALL>

Joe,

You are correct, IF we are talking about keyed guitars; but I want only a keyless to stop hysterisis. So on a keyless, most would be shorter. But thanks for pointing it out.



carl

Does anyone have Tom Brumley's (spelling?)tuning - I think he plays an SD-11

------------------
Ron Petersen &
The Keep'n Tyme Band

Here´s how Tom told it to me.
Standard E9 chromatic tuning with added low E (string 11)
Pedal 1 raises strings 7 and 10 a whole tone
Pedals 2,3,4: standard Emmons ABC pedals
LKL out raises string 4 a whole tone
LKL in raises strings 4 and 8 a half tone
LKV lowers strings 3 and 6 a half tone
RKL lowers strings 5 and 10 a half tone
RKR out raises strings 1 and 7 a half tone
RKR in lowers strings 2 a whole tone (with half stop) and string 9 a half tone.
Is this a cool setup, or what?

Regards, Joe H.

Joe,

I do believe it is correct. I played Tom's Anapeg set up this way in his home. What a beautiful guitar. Only trouble was when I played it, it sounded like the same ole crud I always get when I play.

But in the hands of Tom, it is incredibly beautiful. There are greats and there are greats. But Tom is truly one of the greatest of all. His touch and tone are truly to die for.

carl

When I originally created this thread, it was a "just for fun" idea with no future plans. However, the more I got to thinking about it, the more I liked it. And each time I looked at it, I liked it better.

Since Emmons does not build an 11 string, I sent an email to Carter asking how much. They responded immediately that they do not build a D-11. They suggested I try Mullen or Fessenden. Hmmm.

I could ask Mitsuo to build me a D-11, and I am sure he would, but there are large "duties" and so I got to thinking, I have a practically brand new Emmons' D-10 LeGrande sittin in a case. It has been sitting there in that case since I received my Excel 4 yrs ago.

I know, it has only got 10 strings per neck, but what the hey, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, so they say.

Here is what I am going to do. I am going to gut that thing. While It came with 9 and 4, I had them ship me 5 more knee lever kits which are still in their shipping cartons. I am also going to install a 10th pedal ONLY for the E9th neck for Ralph Mooney type licks.

Then I am going to create the following:

<font face="monospace" size="3"><pre>

A B C 4-10 LKL LKL2 LKV LKR RKL RKL2 RKR

F# * G#
D# E D/C#
G# A G
E F# F# F Eb
B C# C# A Bb
G# A G F#
F# * G#
E F# F Eb
D C#
B C# A Bb

LKL LKL2 LKV LKR RKL RKL2 RKR

4 5 6 7 8 9
D Eb
E D F F
C D D B C#
A Bb B Ab B
G F# F *
E D F Eb
C D C# C#
A Bb B
F F# E G
C D A

</pre></font>

I realize it is not a D-11, but I have the Guitar and all the parts, so here we go. I came up with this setup just fooling around comparing my U-12. And would you believe I have noticed something that I am hankerin to try out.

If you compare LKL2 (C6) AND either RKL or RKR, you will see some interesteing splits and overides. Some of these changes I believe will come in really handy.

A little study and you will see an F7 without sacrificing the middle root plus an F6th with the D note on the 6th string along with two roots. With the standard F9th chord at the I fret, this makes for some unique options.

One caveat; pulling soo many strings with the right knee levers on both necks will make these knee levers too stiff for my taste. But I have that solved. I am going to make these 3 knee levers operate ONLY one neck at a time. I have done this before and it is simple.

What really is nice about it is; a modified PU switch mechanically switches the knee levers from one neck to the other. So there is no extra action necessary. IE, as you switch PU's, the right knee levers only work the neck where the PU is active.

Well, its off to gutting and doun'.

Happy day

carl
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by C Dixon on 06 March 2004 at 03:22 PM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by C Dixon on 06 March 2004 at 03:25 PM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by C Dixon on 06 March 2004 at 04:22 PM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>a modified PU switch mechanically switches the knee levers from one neck to the other.</SMALL>

Carl, I'd like to see pictures and an explanation of how you do this.

OK Jim,

I should have been more specific. The Emmons PU switch being a large Lever type switch is ideal for activating a mechanical switchover unit that my dear and late Mac Atcheson (with a little help from me) developed.

What happens is this. We took the PU lever switch and gutted the electronic's part. We then replaced the electronics with tiny micro switches that would accomplish the same thing. The micro switches are activated by the lever to swtich PU's.

This left room for us to solder a longer lever on the bottom of the PU switch. We then attached a pull rod and a reversing P/P type bellcrank to this lever; that in turn attached to the "switchover" lever.

In Mac's case it ONLY worked on RKR. But by "ganging" the control part of multiple (in line) switchover units, it could easily accomadate the other two knee levers on the right knee; which I intend to do.

The photo below shows the first actual "switchover" unit Mac made. Note: not shown are the crossrods. In essence he split the RKR crossbar into; half for E9 and the other half for C6. Then the switchover is mounted in between the two crossrods.

A little "hockey stick (I call it); part of the switchover unit, is shifted from one position to the other as you operate the PU switch by pull rods and reversing bellcrank (not shown).

This in turn moves the yoke that surrounds the knee lever actuator bellcrank (shown). The yoke transfers power from one 4 hole bellcrank on the E9th crossrod to a corresponding bellcrank on the C6 crossrod and vice versa.

Hopefully you can see how it works in the photos. Again I have not shown the crossrods; or their associated bellcranks.

I came up with some refinements on this; which I demoed at Scotty's last year. Since that time I have improved on it even more. And on my Universal, it is electronically controlled and automatic.

On this one it will be strictly mechanical; which obviously makes it simpler and of course more fool-proof.





Sorry I am not able to show the new electronic ones now. Suffice to say, the mechanical ones work silently and effortlessly. And completely separates the two necks respect the right knee levers.

As far as feel, you do not know anything is changed EXCEPT; each knee lever is obviously easier to activate.

Which is ideal for my impending copedent.

carl <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by C Dixon on 06 March 2004 at 05:47 PM.]</p></FONT>

I've had a Mullen D-11 for almost 13 years. On my C6, the 11th string is an A below the C for those great Chalker chords, namely minor 7ths.

Thanks Carl!

Carl, I noticed you "snuck in" that heretical G to F#, and ommitted the standard Emmons' D on top of the C6..

Seriously though, Danny Shields had a D11 MSA in the 80s here. I'm pretty sure he just added a low G# ( or rather F# as he tuned a whole step low), but I could be mistaken. Maybe Larry Behm remembers.

Also he had a D in the Lower neck. I think it was the middle one.

Having tried a 12 string, I just found that my reference points were all screwed up for one, and the only one I ever tried was an early Sierra, which I never liked any of the line to begin with.

An 11 is indeed a nice tuning. If it were I, I'd add the low G# making three pulls on the B pedal, and stick a low D in the C6 with no changes. Possibly an E subject to the knee levers.



EJL

Carl, your number of knee levers is beyond my comprehension. I don't know how you can develop the "muscle memory" to work multiple levers in the same direction. That's why 5+5 is the max for me. Each lever is a very distinct, separate movement. Each uses different muscles.

Even at 5+5, I have problems separating the pedals sometimes. I force myself because I know that many people play with five C6th pedals, but I still end up with my left foot in the wrong position all too often.

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<font size="1"><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax</font>

Hey Carl, which direction does your middle G compensator move on your C# lever (C6th)? The G note always sounds okay to me.

b0b,

They move flat by a few cents. Interestingly, the Emmons LeGrande is only a 2 hole lower changer. But I was studying it last night and I found a way to make it a 3 hole lower, albeit I will have to tune it underneath the guitar with "half-tone" tuners. This should present no great inconvenience.

As to why I make the G's (on LKR) flat or sharp or none. I have always tuned any 7ths on any tuning very close to ET. Example is the 9th string on E9th. By holding the B pedal down and tuning the D to be a perfect 5th with the 6th string (A), you are tuning the D note pretty close to ET respect to the key of E; RATHER than tune it to JI with respect to the B note of E.

If you analyze the C6 tuning, I find that the A's are tuned considerably flat by most players (I included). So in the case of an A7th chord, the G note is sharp of ET (respect to A). Of course it is very close to ET respect to C.

But the analogy is different here than on the E9th tuning; because there we are talking about the A (part of the perfect fifth) note which is very close to ET. Here we are talking about an A note which is considerably flat of ET.

Example: C to E (JI) to A to D to G (C6). Versus E to A to D (E9th). Since the E's and A's on C6 are normally flat, then it follows that the G should be flat. Or at least that is the way I hear it.

Thus, the reason I have to flatten the G's to get my 7ths to sound the same relative to my D note on E9; when playing an A7th chord on C6. If I leave the G note alone, and try some of Jerry Byrds tunes like "Cocoanut Grove", the G sounds sharp to what my ears hear him picking while the A's sound ok.

Remember we are playing sharp of the fret with pedal 8 similar to the A/F combination on E9th. This further shows the G to be sharp.

This has bothered me since day one on the C neck. Never found a way to solve it 'til now. Since the raised 9th is one entity--leave the G alone. The A7th is another entity--lower the G's just slightly when LKR is engaged.

When I used to strum strings with the 8th pedal down to give an A7th chord, it never was rich enough nor caused that great dominant tension I feel 7ths should. But I never wanted to change it here because it messes up the raised 9th dissonant chord.

BUT, with the LKR knee lever, it is NO longer a raised 9th, rather a simple A7th chord (if used with pedal . Now I want 'them' G's slightly flattened to accomadate the above. So in essence I have the best of both worlds.

Sorry I rambled. I will try to work on that.

carl

Some more trivia.

This guitar is going to have 11 knee levers. Anyone working on a PSG knows this can be a nightmare. But last night I remembered a little trick Mitsuo did on David Phillips' new 14 string Excel; SuperB model.

Would you believe I can eliminate a knee lever; cutting it down to 10 and with the exception of RKR, I will have NO reversing mechanisms? Blew me away the more I thought about it.

The trick is to raise the crossrod high and install the bellcranks UNDER the crossrod. This is gives an automatic reversal. Can't believe it took me 45 yrs to see this simple way to get away from reversing brackets. I hate those things. They take up sooo much room.

This also allows the same knee lever to work in BOTH directions, but installing these opposite bellcranks on top of the crossrod.

This results in LKR on E9th becoming LKL on C6; saving a lever. Can't tell you how much this UN clutters the bottom of the guitar.

wow

Praise Jesus for such wonders that abound to bring us joy.

carl