The Steel Guitar Forum

Slowly but surely,,,(well,,maybe not surely,,but,,???) Top is coming together,,,,the "business side,,,yet to go,,, Lacquer does not have final polish yet.

Wow!

Sonny, it's looking very good. now if I can find a beat up Klne I know who to send it to. How did you get the fret board off the neck, or did you have a new one?

Thanks guys! Bob, the fretboard had obviously been replaced in the not too distant past. It was secured with what appeared to be contact cement (kind of a rubbery film?),,,used a 3rd string (G#) to run under it, pulling back and forth. Polished and waxed it to look new again. Notice the darker strip down the middle? After removing two finishes (the original dull green and an attempt at chemical ebonizing that didn't work out I lost some dimension,,also the end plates on a Kline protrude past the aprons 1/8" (may be different on a mica guitar,,,not sure). I wanted the aprons and the end plates to be flush,,or close to it so had to widen the body and neck almost 3/8". (my neighbor has a very complete wood shop and was kind enough to do some very precision wood work for me. I will also have to space the side rails accordingly.

Sonny,. I am really impressed with your speed and precision on this project. Bravo.
I hope Joe Kline is watching and will also add a few comments on your work. Thanks for keeping us up to date on this. steve t

I've always liked that machined aluminum pickup cavity. In addition to being aesthetically pleasing, it solves a problem I see reocurring on some steels with the conventional aluminum neck over pillow block approach - top wood cracks at the changer cutout.
One disadvantage of that though is the pickup cavity is quite shallow. It won't fit every pickup but so what . Joe's pickup sounds damn good.
Sonny, can you confirm - do raises and lowers add/subtract or does a raise dominate with the Kline changer design?
For instance, does a two step raise actuated with a one step lower on the same string produce a net one step raise?

Steve,,,thanks my friend,,,(not sure I would want to hear Joe's comments,,,LOL),,,seriously,,the more I work on this thing the more I realize and appreciate the ingenuity that he put into it,,,amazing!!!

Jim,,not 100% sure,,but I would think that once the stop is set at end plate, that's it,,nothing "overides" that setting.

Actually I'm very apprehensive when it comes to re-rodding,,hook-ups etc. I've gotten some tips from Joe and Paul both,,,counting on those, some common sense, some mental calculations, memory and whatever else I can muster,,,in the end I may have to have someone else do the "tweaking" for me.

I feel awkward contradicting such a craftsman as Sonny, but the Kline changer, limited as it is in the number of pulls, is indeed like other all-pull changers in that a simultaneous raise and lower will give you the intermediate note which you can tune using the lower screw. You then tune the full lower using the set screw above deck.

I use this on string 5 to get C natural and on string 6 to get G natural - A minor and E minor in open position.

whooaa Ian,,anyone who can build a steel like you've done can contradict me anytime my friend! I think I must have misinterpreted the question,,or just plain got it wrong,,,thanks for the correction.

As to what can be done on a Kline, I'm looking forward to the challenge of re-rodding this guitar,,,(may be a lot of hair pulling!) and doing some experimenting as to what can be done. I think Kline has always been seen as very limited in it's capabilities, especially as more modern guitars are concerned. However, people like Winnie Winston and maybe Paul Redmond have expressed they are not nearly as limited as first thought,,,,I believe Winnie stated somewhere that the changes were infinite,,,of course that was way back when. I know this guitar had some rods (loose, disconnected) that looked like they had some sort of "piggy back" mechanism,,,makes me wonder. Of course I play a very basic Jeff Newman tuning, but it will be interesting to delve into these capabilities anyway.

I'll stick my neck out and say that yes, the Kline changer is limited - to what you actually need. It gives one raise, one lower, and an intermediate step which can be either. With those you can build a guitar with all the basic changes, including a uni 12. What you can't do is bring all the luxuries that a 4-up 3-down changer might have got you used to.

This is the copedent of my guitar with a Kline-copy changer; I don't think it lacks anything vital



The eagle-eyed will spot that string 9 appears to have three raises; but the first intermediate step to B# is borrowed from string 10, which uses only one raise. The benefit of this type of changer is its solidity - it has good tone and stability because it tunes at the endplate. It's one step up from a pull-release.

Based on what I'm seeing and thinking at this point, string limitations would come into play before instrument capabilities would. Four notes on each string are already there, plus possible 3 more from near neighbors, plus more from more distant neighbors,,,plus same note from multiple pedals/levers (piggy backing on same rod).MUCH more than I would ever use,,,but I may do some experimenting just to see what is possible (not necessarily practical!)

Wish Joe would chime in and discuss possibilities.

Sonny Jenkins wrote:Based on what I'm seeing and thinking at this point, string limitations would come into play before instrument capabilities would. Four notes on each string are already there, plus possible 3 more from near neighbors, plus more from more distant neighbors,,,plus same note from multiple pedals/levers (piggy backing on same rod).MUCH more than I would ever use,,,but I may do some experimenting just to see what is possible (not necessarily practical!)

Wish Joe would chime in and discuss possibilities.

Sonny, are you saying you can get four notes on one string? I was under the impression you could only get 3 notes. 1 raise and 2 lowers or 2 raise and one lower. How do you get the fourth note.? I understand using neighbors to get additional notes.

The open note/one raise/2 lowers or open note/2 raises/1 lower.
I count 4 notes. And if you share a rod and use a halftone tuner, you can do even more.

What Lane says is correct,,,4 total,,,3 changes from original open note. I think (JMO), in terms of practicality, the possibilities are unlimited,,,but then the question of,,"what is practical to one person may not be practical to another"? With my basic Jeff Newman uni copedent,,,it is very adequate,,,but I think, should I want to "stretch out" into some of the more complex tunings of today, there would be ways to accomplish that (may take someone a lot smarter than me to do it!!!)

Lane Gray wrote:The open note/one raise/2 lowers or open note/2 raises/1 lower.
I count 4 notes. And if you share a rod and use a halftone tuner, you can do even more.

Duuuuuh. Ok I forgot the open string. Old brain syndrome.

i just want to see the underneath all back together and functioning properly. i'd like to have a kline 12.
i'm not crazy about everyone's decision to replace wood marketry with pearly stuff. i like the older aesthetic.
but this should be cool steel.

On the Kline I had, my E9 fourth string had 4 changes. The 3rd pedal, the F lever (using a shorter rod welded to the rod that attached to the little hook on the changer, and the short rod went through the middle hole in the end plate to tune. For a while, I also raised string 4 to F# on a lever. And, it also had the E lower.

I also had 3 raises on my C neck. String 4 to Bb, to B twice.

Moving right along,,,polished the grooves out of the fingers. The brass axle was showing some wear so I replaced it with a nitrited ejector pin rod,,,very hard and very polished!!! Also tightened the linkage in the finger assembly and lubed. Yes, I'm anxious to get it back together and functioning properly also,,,and for the pearly thing,,,to each his own.

Moving right along

Looking good Sonny,
As for the limitations of the Kline changer it is more limitations of the guy doing it. If you want 8 pedal and 8 or 9 levers It can become very challenging and take a whole day to add the last couple levers.

As some are saying you can 'borrow' holes from other strings as well as drilling holes below the springs.
You can route a rod through multiple yokes if they pull to the same pitch.

I have always been able to give customers all the pulls they want. Even though it can get tough!

Thanks so much for the input Joe,,,and VERY well stated indeed!! My goal now is to get this baby put back together and functioning properly,,,the way a Kline is supposed to!!!

chris ivey wrote:i just want to see the underneath all back together and functioning properly. i'd like to have a kline 12.
i'm not crazy about everyone's decision to replace wood marketry with pearly stuff. i like the older aesthetic.
but this should be cool steel.

I really like the wood inserts, but some of these guitars that have mother-of-pearl, or abalone inlays are beautiful. The exception is using the MOP and abalone on light colored, or natural finish guitars. They get lost when looking at the front of a guitar. You can barely see them.

Stylized "K" installed,,,ready to start underneath,,,
Someone (Kline owner) had asked me to make them a "K" and I forgot who it was???

now that looks cool, sonny. and with that and the black lacquer the pearl looks good!