Sierra parts availability, and mechanicking questions

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Okay, so I am saving up for another guitar.
I want a new 1, but now a deal almost too good to pass up (maybe) is presenting itself.
A Sierra 12 with 8 pedals and an unknown amount of knee levers ( I'm assuming 5) for under a grand.
First question: every Sierra guitar I've ever seen has had the levers mounted on the rear rail, would Sierras support inside cluster mounting?
Second question: are there pedal and knee lever tickets available for the Sierra?
3rd: Since I don't even know what is this guitar has keys or not, what is the maximum number of pedals on a keyless guitar? I can't help but think you run out of room.
4th: are these guitars hard to change the copedent around on?
5th: with the MSA unfinished, do I need my head examined even thinking about another project guitar?
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

Lane, here is what I've found out about Sierras. This is all second-hand info, so if I get anything wrong, hopefully the Sierra fans will correct me:

First, you want to look at the Crown and latter models ideally. The earlier ones, so I've been told, among other things lack a sophisticated knee lever arrangement on the reversing knees. I think this changed with more modern versions, but I am not positive about this. Crown and later have Triple raise/double lowers vs. the 2x2 or earlier models.

Second, parts are available from Jim Palenscar. A recent post stated that pedals for these run about $250 and knees are up to $300, so if you are adding lots of these you might want to check with Jim first.

Third, you can download the manual on the Sierra website which covers I believe all models.

Fourth, changing coped: up through the Crown series they have round cross shafts, and you have to remove the cross shaft to add or remove bell cranks. The later Sierra Sessions have square cross shafts and you can remove or add bell cranks without removing cross shafts. It is not difficult, but it is time-consuming I think.

Knee levers: I am less clear on this, but I think some are "mobile" (the ones that move right) and mounted on the very back edge, others are not mobile and mounted on a smaller rail just inside of this. Here is a picture courtesy of Tom Cambell of the knees on his recently sold Sierra Crown:

So, I also have not seen any that are "clusterable", but perhaps I am wrong on that.

The Keyless guitars have a longer scale, I believe (did all of them? Anyone know?) 25 inch, I believe. That is only an inch or less than most other brands so you might be right about pedals. But there is a 14 string keyless Excel on Ebay at the moment with 10 pedals, so I guess they can fit. I've wondered if that one might interest you, even if you just leave two strings off, but it is a good bit more money than the Sierra. It has been Re-upped at least once, so is not exactly jumping, so I suspect offers would be entertained.

Lane, of course, only you can decide if it is worth pursuing for yourself. If you decide not to go for it, please pass the info on to me as I might be interested. I've been pondering having a guitar I could play with copedent ideas without taking my Zum offline. I just want 8 and 5, so no additional expense except maybe rods.

That's all the info I have.

Doug
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I'm not sure of anything other than "1982 12-string Sierra 8 pedals."
My savings plan is currently up to 600 or so, so the Sierra is in reach. I wouldn't mind a 14, just wouldn't quite know where to put the other 2
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

Lane, I think 82 puts it into the Sierra Crown era. Again, if you decide not to pursue it I would be interested.

As for the 14 stringer, I think it has one on each side of the usual 12 strings, and from pics it has no pulls on either of those strings. Others I have read about are the same, I think. I still get lost with 12 strings sometimes.... 14??? I don't think so!

Doug
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Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental!

Tom Campbell · From: Houston, Texas, USA

Sierra 12 KEYLESS SESSION 24 1/4" and 25" scale.
Sierra 12 KEYLESS CROWN 25" scale only.

Sierra 12 KEYED CROWN are out there, come up occasionally on the Forum and ebay.

Sierra 12 KEYED SESSION is almost non-existant, only a couple or so made. Some D-10 KEYED SESSIONS are out there.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

The right-moving (reversing) knee levers attach to the rear apron rail. Left-moving and vertical levers attach directly to the crossrod. I think you could have "inner" levers, though I've never actually tried it. I always max out at 5 knee levers anyway.
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Tom Campbell · From: Houston, Texas, USA

The following is from the "Crown Series Technical Specifications" from Sierra's, "Sierra Shines Again" catalog:

24 1/4 inch or 25 inch scale with gearless tuners

24 1/4 inch scale with Grover tuners

I just sold my 25" scale Sierra Crown U12 on the Forum a couple weeks ago. (donation sent)

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

What year was it made, Tom? I don't recall 25" being an option when I bought mine in '83.
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Tom Campbell · From: Houston, Texas, USA

It was a 1992 build. Serial number SCM 12 887 92.
Pictures should still be on the Forum "For Sale" site. Dark Blue.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

If 82 is Crown, and Crown has 3/8" round shafts, a Zum LKR with bracket and an MSA bellcrank gives it an inner LKR.
(I love Bruce's *KR lever, bracket and reverser in one piece: Genius)
I'll wait for pics.
I still don't have an answer for Q5, though
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Lane, if I were you, I'd see the MSA project through before taking on another. Keep on saving for that new steel while finalizing the MSA.

You have to fight that creeping GAS!! It is deviously sneeky. It'll grab you, twist your brain, and leave you wondering what happened!! Whoa!

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Best regards,
Mike

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

Bob and Tom: I did hear that the earlier Sierras had a "clumsy mechanism" on the reversing knee levers (this from an owner). Do you know if they did improve that on later models? Tom, you've owned both Crown and Sessions.... Is this your experience with them?

Thanks

Doug
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Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental!

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I've never had a problem with the reversing knee levers. It's an unusual design, but it works.
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Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I was at Jim Palanscars place a few weeks back and he does have Sierra parts.

To be honest I love Sierras but the reversing mech on the Session is a bit busy, and does allow for a bit more slack than I think there should be.
[edit] I just noticed that the Session reversing mech looks identicle to the Crown in the pic posted earlier in this thread.]

I'm not a fan of reversing mechanisms in general, so for my Crown series, I used an idea I saw on a BMI and put the the bellcrank on top of the crossrod (no reversing mech needed with the bell-crank on top).
I had to make a little mount for the lower crossrod, but in the end it is a great feeling RKR.
I think all steels should do away with the reversing mechanism, and go with a modified bellcrank/cross-rod set-up like this.
I'll post a pic soon.

Here is the Session LK lever cluster.
See that brass part near the top... (it's the same part that slips over the little ball thing that connects the pedals to the pedal-rod).
There is a short rod with brass thing-ee'ss on each end that conncet the LKR reversing mech to the cross rod, which is a few inches to the left of LKR.
In this pic the only lever that has to be on the rear apron is the LKR.
All the others are "mobile" (attach directly to the cross rod).
You can see RKL2 on the far right, which is close to the front apron.

Tom Campbell · From: Houston, Texas, USA

I've never had a problem with the reversing mech., I just make sure everything (nuts)are tight and no "slop" in the linkage.
I've had Remington, Fulawka, and MSA steels and can't tell any difference. I will say the Session Series has what I would call a "softer" stop feel than the Crown Series. The Crown Series has a very hard, positive stop feel because it uses a cam aganist a solid aluminum frame (see above photo of underside).

Eugene Cole · From: near Washington Grove, MD, USA

Whip Lashaway · From: Monterey, Tenn, USA

Bob, My 88 Stafford Elagante is 25" scale.
Lane, My 98 has a cluster.
Everybody, I've never had any trouble with the reversing mechanism.
I haven't done a lot of reconfiguring but I have. It's not what you'd call easy, but I wouldn't call any of them easy. It's doable.
But you should also know I am a hardcore Sierra guy.
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Whip Lashaway
Sierra E9/B6 12 string
Sierra E9/B6 14 string
Excel S12 8x9 blue
Excel S12 8x9 black

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I'm currently re-rodding my '78 Sierra Olympic S-12 for a different tuning and copedent. It's not hard to do if the bell cranks are close to where they should be. The Olympic has a support spine in the middle of the crossrod. If you need to move a crank from one of the low 6 strings to one of the high 6 strings, you have to pull the crossrod. That's a real pain.

The design was corrected with the Crown series.

BTW, the Olympic has a 24 1/4" scale (measured). I just discovered that the fretboard is off a bit on the high frets. Never noticed that before. Embarassed

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Tom Campbell · From: Houston, Texas, USA

b0b,

The problem of the round shafts and the "spine" down the center of the U12 was corrected with the Session Series, i.e. square shafts and slip-on bellcranks.

The Sierra Crown 12 "Gearless" I just sold had round shafts and a "spine" between the 6th and 7th strings.

You are correct in that if you have the required bellcranks on either side of the "spine", changing setups is not that difficult.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

My '83 Crown Gearless S-12 did not have the crossrod support spine between the 6th and 7th strings.
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Tom Campbell · From: Houston, Texas, USA

Sierra did a lot of "off the cuff" design changes within a given series.
I have a Session 12 that has square cross shafts but the ends are machined round to fit round bushings in the side frame holes. Normally the Session has square hole bushings to fit the square shafts. Tom Baker told me my steel was a transistion model between the Crown Series and the Session Series.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Thanks for the input. Now all I gotta do is hear back from the other guy. Given that I keep flip-flopping, I think I probably get it. I assume the Crown is triple raise, double lower?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Tom Campbell · From: Houston, Texas, USA

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

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