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Topic: Emmons p/p vs LeGrands for tone? |
Bill Simmons
From:
Keller, Texas/Birmingham, AL, R.I.P.
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Posted 11 Feb 2004 11:46 am |
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I love my '79 Emmons p/p but frankly have never compared the Emmons LeGrande or LeGrande II with it to compare the tone difference. I had a short key head Emmons that was very nice, but again I'm curious what or if there is a tonal difference.
Assuming a person loves the tone of his p/p, which Emmons all pull and with what pickup would be close or close to equal for tone of a good sounding p/p?? Thanks in advance for everyone's wisdom and advice. [This message was edited by Bill Simmons on 11 February 2004 at 02:57 PM.] |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2004 12:09 pm
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Most P/P officianados say the P/P had the best sound of any steel; and they include LeGrandes. Of these, some of them say the LeGrande comes the closest to the sound of a P/P of any steel.
Because sound is probably the most subjective thing ever, I am not sure it will ever be proven; either way.
Suffice to say, that P/P's are becoming disproportionaly more and more expensive on the buy and sell market. Whereas other guitars including the LeGrande do not share that luxury. So there may be indeed something to it. Since for all practical purposes, the P/P and the LeGrande look almost identical from a purely esthetic point of view.
carl |
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Frank Parish
From:
Nashville,Tn. USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2004 1:30 pm
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| Bill check your e-mail. |
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Reggie Duncan
From:
Mississippi
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Posted 11 Feb 2004 7:20 pm
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| IMHO, the only guitar that sounds like an Emmons is an Emmons. |
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Nick Reed
From:
Russellville, KY USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2004 9:53 pm
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| Reggie, I couldn't agree with you more. Emmons are the best! |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 12 Feb 2004 4:45 pm
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The only guitar that sounds like an Emmons is Buddy.
Dennis |
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Pat Burns
From:
Branchville, N.J. USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2004 7:10 pm
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...I have owned both the p/p and Legrande II, and there is definately a tonal difference to my ear...both sound great, but the p/p has a distinctive sound that actually does earn that overused word "awesome"...the Legrande II is similar, but not the same...
...wish I could have kept them both, but I had to sell the Legrande to buy the push/pull...I wouldn't sell the push/pull to buy a Legrande...that's the difference... |
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Dale Dorsey
From:
Granger, Indiana, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2004 8:27 pm
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| Oh gosh, I just bought a LeGrande II. Im sick and haven't even got it yet. |
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Carlos Polidura
From:
Puerto Rico
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Posted 12 Feb 2004 8:58 pm
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Could it be nostalgia???
Or is it because it bears the Emmons name?...
Or perhaps something else?
Well, I thought I made a mistake When I traded my previous guitar for my now, one and only 1974 Emmons. By my own experience my Emmons has the most beautiful sound I had ever experienced on a PSG. |
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Reggie Duncan
From:
Mississippi
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Posted 12 Feb 2004 9:02 pm
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| Dale, don't despair! You will be thrilled with your new instrument! I love all pedal steel tones....well, almost. [This message was edited by Reggie Duncan on 12 February 2004 at 09:03 PM.] |
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Randy Carson
From:
San Antonio, Texas, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2004 12:17 am
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Dale,
the new emmons are great, i had a push pull and i like my brand new emmons better. mainly because it plays better and the tone difference wasnt that big to me, as i kind of like the new one. but each steel is a little different, but you will not be disapointed with your new one.
RC |
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Dale Dorsey
From:
Granger, Indiana, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2004 3:25 am
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| Thanks for the vote of confidence guys. It arrives today and I only hope it's close to having THAT tone! |
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David Cobb
From:
Chanute, Kansas, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2004 3:55 am
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| Don't despair Dale, my Legrande w/single coils and a decent amp sounds just fine. You're getting a fine instrument. |
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Pat Burns
From:
Branchville, N.J. USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2004 6:46 am
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| ...that's right, Dale, don't be sick...as I mentioned, I wish I could have kept my Legrande II, but I had to sell it to afford the push/pull...they are both top-of-the-line luxury models with the unmistakable Emmons tone.. [This message was edited by Pat Burns on 13 February 2004 at 06:47 AM.] |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2004 7:18 am
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Dale,
I will concede the P/P has a slightly better sound (in some instances) than a LeGrande. I conclude this out of respect for the many outsdanding players who claim that. Remember, NOT all Emmons' P/P's have that sound.
Putting sound aside for the moment, NO way would I ever select ANY P/P (regardless of the sound) over a LeGrande. The reason is as follows:
Sound IS important. But it is NOT the only important thing about a PSG. The mechanics and changer, etc. also have great importance; and should receive much consideration when contemplating what to purchase.
IMO, the changer of the LeGrande is a far superior changer to the P/P changer. Here is why I feel this way:
1. At best, the P/P is a single raise/single lower system. Archaic in today's modern copedents.
2. Even using half-tone tuners underneath, it is still "rube golbergish" at best. And in the case of double lowers, a nightmare. In fact lowers are a night mare in any case to work on. Installing long "drop" rods (lowers), has got to be the most rediculous thing I have ever seen on a PSG.
3. The slack required in raises, when you lower that same string, is unacceptable to me.
4. Having to use springs to "time" pulls on the same pedal or knee lever is just tooooooo cumbersome to me. And IMO, the springs are indeed necessary. Also, they tend to cause "spongyness and stiffness" in pedals and/or knee levers.
5. The 14 hole bellcrank on the LeGrande IMO, is the single greatest improvement EVER, since the inception of the PSG. This incredible bellcrank allows allows pulls to be timed almost perfectly, and NOTHING known has more to do with the "feel" of pedals and knee levers, than timing of pulls.
I said all the above, to tell you never be worried about ordering a LeGrande. It is one of the finest PSG's EVER built. And with respect to the above, it IS better in a number of wasys than a P/P for MOST players.
Again, I have much respect for those who love and go gah-gah over the P/P. But they are in the minority. I say to them, buy one, play one and love it. But many of us love the LeGrande hands down over the P/P.
There is NO greater player or "sound" producer in this world, than Buddy Emmons, and he plays two LeGrandes. Gotta be a reason!
If the P/P was sought after buy the majority of players, NO way would Emmons' have ever dropped it from their product line.
To each his own,
carl |
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John Lacey
From:
Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada
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Posted 13 Feb 2004 8:01 am
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| Carl and others all make very good points about the P/P vs. Legrande discussion. I'm in that dilemma now, with a choice of a couple of Legrande III's offered in trade for my P/P. Having owned a "baby" Legrande before, I found it "wimpy" (sorry Larry), compared to my '69 P/P. Now, I've heard they've improved and certainly, I enjoyed the pedal action and ease of tuning the Legrande. There's no doubt about the mechanical superiority of the Legrandes, I think it comes down to that "sound in your head" dilemma. If you can compromise that with the Legrande, then you might have it licked. In a perfect world (good day job), I'd keep the P/P and buy the Legrande. [This message was edited by John Lacey on 13 February 2004 at 08:10 AM.] |
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Mark Tomeo
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Posted 13 Feb 2004 8:55 am
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I once owned both a '97 LeGrande and a '69 D10 pushpull and so had plenty of opportunity to A-B them. The pushpull had a couple of superior sonic characteristics that the LeGrande lacked:
pushpull harmonics were richer, fuller, more chimey, sustained longer and were easier to produce.
The string separation, especially when playing the lower pairs was razor sharp. On the LeGrande they're kind of muddy; if I tweak the amp EQ enough to get the low strings clear, the high strings sound thin and shrill.
The pushpull also had terrific vintage vibe: those wide cast pedals, silver fret lines, logo sticker instead of screw-on badge, flat black mica and butterbean Klusons, were all very cool.
BUT...I'm not mechanical enough to maintain or modify that mechanism, and I spent more time underneath that guitar than playing it. I couldn't do a thing with it mechanically, and let's face it, competent pushpull mechanics can't be found in every town.
So I let it go, kept the LeGrande and got a Zum 12 which I use to experiment with different pedal moves and setups. The Zum actually sounds more like the pushpull than the LeGrande does and is ridiculously easy to tear down and rerod. Comfort, feel, ease of playing and the ability to add or modify a change quickly are very important to me.
The pushpulls really do have something unique and extraordinary in terms of their sound - someone in another post said the old ones have a piece of Buddy's soul in them, and maybe that's the truth. They've definitely got something the all-pulls don't.
But for me, it was like owning a fancy sports car. If you can't do at least some of the maintenance yourself, it's never gonna run right and it's always gonna be in the shop.
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Bruce Hamilton
From:
Vancouver BC Canada
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Posted 13 Feb 2004 11:06 am
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| I have to agree with Mark. I owned both a Zum and a Legrande 111 along with my push pull. The Zum with Emmons 19000ohms single coils was way closer to my push pull than the Legrande with the same pickups. Having said that I quite liked the sound of the Legrande as the mid range on it was far less brutal and in some situations that was a bonus. |
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 13 Feb 2004 12:01 pm
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Carl- You have explained the differences bad and good between the PP and LeGrande. And did it very well.
I have had 3 push Pulls in around the 70's and one of them had That sound. Just great. the other two, nada.
As Mark says , tone is very important but the mechanics, ease of playing, ease of tuning, etc etc. is very inportant.
Most of the modern guitars have a good sound. It is up to the player to get the Tone....al 
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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/
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Billy Morgan
From:
Talladega, Alabama
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Posted 13 Feb 2004 2:39 pm
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I currently have a 70's pushpull along with a 90's Legrande II along with a couple of other major brands and I a-b them frequently. It is my opinion that the p/p sound is indeed magic, but both guitars have the characteristic Emmons tone. They both sound like Emmons guitars and the other brands I have, although they sound good, do not have this sound. Although I love both guitars,I tend to gig with the Legrande II and play the p/p more at home. If I had to pick between the two I really don't know which direction I would go. Much has been said about the Emmons p/p, but the Legrande is also an excellent choice. I think Carl did an great job in explaining the differences between the p/p and the Legrande.
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[This message was edited by Billy Morgan on 13 February 2004 at 02:48 PM.] |
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Dale Dorsey
From:
Granger, Indiana, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2004 3:46 pm
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| Well, I sure appreciate all the help and input. Everyone makes a lot of sense and there are some tradeoff's I suppose. This new one, supposed to deliver today..but not here yet...has humbuckers and I have no idea what they are wound to. Any further advice on if single coils wound to 17500 might be better? Thanks again. |
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Bob Snelgrove
From:
san jose, ca
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Posted 27 Feb 2004 5:12 pm
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Dale
Did you ever get it?
Are you sick or happy?
thx
bob |
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Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
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Posted 27 Feb 2004 7:19 pm
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I owned a 1978 Emmons SD-10 pp. although it sounded great, it didn't sound as good as my all pull D10. maybe the doubble neck has something to do with it, but it has a lot crisper, brighter sound than did my pp.
I wouldn't even think about trading it for a pp. |
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