The Steel Guitar Forum

Look at the following picture. Then follow along with me as I describe some changes in this unique keyless head:



This is the new keyless head that Mistsuo made me (after the fact), for my Excel SuperB model U-12. I showed it to a few of you last year at the ISGC.

It is not like any other. First of all, it is much longer. Why?

Because I have never cared for the chopped off looks of a keyless guitar. So when I originally ordered the guitar, I had Mitsuo make the guitar the same length as my Emmons' D-10. Incidently I had him locate all the pedals and knee levers in the exact same spot they are on my D-10. He could do this easily because even though it is a universal, it is a 12-10 body with padded neck.

The problem this caused is what to do with the keyless head. So I asked him to make me a "surround" area for my picks and bar to make up the extra length. Which he did. This is the large hole space you see in it.

Although I do not now use it for that now, but it made it esthetically better IMO. I use it for my tuning wrenches. There are three of them. And it works very nice to have a specific place to store them. They go through drilled holes thru the body, and remain captive until needed.

Secondly, note the 1" bar that goes all the way accross the head. On my original one, this had 12 tuners in it for tuning the open strings. 6 for the even strings and 6 for the odd strings. This was at my request. As it turned out, it was NOT a good idea as I discovered.

Two things happened that changed all that:

1. He came out with his own "counterforce" ass'y to stop cabinet drop problems. Only instead of the ass'y working at the changer end, it works at the keyless end. I will explain how later.

2. I wanted to go back to his type of tuners.

So I asked him about it. He responded he did not think it could be done because of what he had to do to make my dimensional changes work. But after I studied one of the newer models, I came up with an idea which I sent to him. He responded it would work.

So what you see is it. And it worked like a charm. By the way he sent me this picture before shipping it to me.

You cannot imagine the dramatic change for the better in the sound by my going back to his type of adjusters. I am soo pleased.

The adjuster tuner ass'y floats on metal pivot dowels on each side of the keyless head (hard to see in the photo). The counterforce works in opposition to the normal strings' pull on this ass'y and this counteracts cabinet drop. I really like the way he does it. In some respects better than the LeGrande III.

You can see one of the counterforce tuners in the surround area. He just put it there to let me see one of them when he asked how many I wanted setup. They actually go under the guitar but in my case very easily reached.

Finally, notice on adjuster number 11 and 12 there are holes drilled down thru the top of the adjuster that you do not see on the other 10. This is one slick idea he came up with.

He solved a long standing problem on U-12 keyless guitars by doing this. The gauge of wire for the bigger strings makes them very difficult to wrap aroung an allen head screw and lock them down without them coming loose.

So, he doesnt do that on this head. Rather, you simply insert string 11 and 12 down thru these holes and then screw a slightly pointed allen screw in to lock those bigger strings. (you can see the allen screw on the left end of the tuner in the photo). It works great.

It would be risky to do this on the smaller strings since the allen screw might tend to cut them in to. But for 11 and 12 it is a blessing.

Hope this was of interest to some of you,

carl

A Better Way


<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by C Dixon on 16 February 2004 at 04:08 PM.]</p></FONT>

Question:

With regard the string holes in adjuster 11 & 12....do you first cut these strings before inserting them into the holes?, or do they get strung straight through, and then get cut off?

Good question Howard.

They go straight thru and stick out the bottom of the guitar. I grab each one with a pair of pliers in my left hand, pull them taught as I tighten the allen lock screw in on them with my right hand. Works great.

Then I slightly tilt the guitar forward and cut the hanging ends off with a pair of side cutters. Takes just a second. But oh how nice it is compared to the former method.

Incidently, All keyless guitars have a built in problem when installing strings. and that is how do you get that dang string tight enough before you lock it down. Because if you get it too loose, you have to use all the threads of the adjuster before the string gets in tune.

I came up with a fix for this for the other 10 strings. If I can get my digital camera to work, I will add that to this thread. I got the idea from something a player posted on the forum last year. I adapted it to this guitar. It works better than I ever imagined. His was permanent. Mine is used only while doing it. They both have advantages but in a way I think I prefer the temporary way better.

Thanks for asking,

carl

A Better Way

Gene Fields is an authority on keyless. His are the best I've ever seen. Jody.

Yes, I think Gene Fields makes the best keyles tuners. He will be happy to sell you one, as long as you buy the guitar with it.

Carl-That was ian interesting post and thank you for posting. Lets hear more about your guitar. How is your switching system working? I think we could all use that on our knee levers to save on levers...


Ernest-I had a GFI Keyless and a couple of other makes and in my opinion, Genes is the best one I liked. So I agree with you on that......al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 16 February 2004 at 09:01 PM.]</p></FONT>

When I first decided to go with a keyless (using Joe Kline's tuners) I thought long and hard about what to do with the extra length of my steel. I came up with all sorts of things to hold the picks, the bar, a whole Korg tuner, etc. In the end, I decided I wanted the body as short as possible for ease of transport, and I sliced 6.5 inches off the body. Never regretted it.
Wouldn't go any other way now. Steels with pegheads look weird to me.
And I don't understand the problem of getting tension to string it up. In the Kline, the string goes through a hole and then wraps back over under a locking screw. Never had any problem pulling them up to pitch. The High G# is the one that has the most travel.
As for using a cutter? Never did. Once the string is secure under the locking nut, I just grab the free end and bend it back and forth a few times. String breaks right off. Even the big bass ones.

JW

Winnie,

You know something I would like to see. On my Sierra keyless and the Excel, I have had great difficulty prestreching the string before locking it down. Long nose pliers, regular pliers, nylon dowels (like Sierra uses), etc have been totally inadaquate for me.

My arms and hands are just not strong enough to overcome 30+ lbs of pull to get them tight enough so that I can use most of the adjuster threads to tune the guitar rather than pretightening the string.

I suggest I am not alone, for when I have seen a number of Keyless guitars, I often see adjusters so far down, they are risking running out of threads. In fact, there have been several posts on this forum about it. And the questions were all similar.

"How do you get them tight enough before locking them down. I have run out of threads on the adjuster while trying to tune given strings".

So if you have a way, I am ALL ears. The fix I came up with is a long lever that pivots just to the right of the roller nut support. It has a regular tuning key on the short end of the lever arm. After installing the string (without cutting it off), I insert the tip of the extra string length into the hole in the key post.

THEN wind the key until it takes up all the slack of the extra string length. Then I grab the long end of the lever and hold it. I use my other hand to loosen the locking screw. Now I simply pivot the arm exerting as MUCH pressure as I want and when I get the string about a half tone lower than final pitch, I lock it down. Cut off the spring, remove the string from the key on the lever and that is it.

Takes just a minute to do it. Works like a charm for me. presently I am building a yoke ass'y that will surround the neck and sit over the neck at the nut. This will support the pivoting lever and it will be high enough not to interfere with the strings.

I will keep this ass'y in my seat compartment. Again, if you have no problem in tightening and locking the strings, you are blessed. Many of us do. I once saw Joe Wright struggle with a 3rd string he broke during his part of a show. With this device, he would have had that string on there and up to pitch in a 10th of the time it took him.

carl

A Better Way

Kline tuners on a Super Pro
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by chas smith on 17 February 2004 at 08:39 AM.]</p></FONT>

Chas,

Number one, that is one gorgeous PSG!

Two, if you played this before the keyless tuners were installed, have you noticed ANY tonal difference before an after.

If Yes, would you describe them to us. I would be really interested to know.

Thanks for posting the picture,

carl

A Better Way<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by C Dixon on 17 February 2004 at 10:26 AM.]</p></FONT>

Al,

I am sorry, I did not see your post 'til just now. I am working on putting all the prototyype "breadboard" swithovers in my guitar. Because of other priorities, I have put it on the back burner ONLY temporarily. I hope to have it all completed soon.

Thanks for asking.

carl

Are you troubled? Try this

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by C Dixon on 17 February 2004 at 03:54 PM.]</p></FONT>

Carl, thank you. As fate would have it, that is Super Pro #2 off the assembly line. Evidently it was originally made for Ralph Mooney, who didn't like it, so Red Rhodes bought it, but he didn't like it either. In 1979, I would buy anything that was black and silver and shiny, so I bought it from Red.

But it didn't sound very good, of course I couldn't play very well either, so it was an unpleasant combination. I did have an Emmons S-10 that sounded so much better, so it wasn't entirely me.

The biggest tonal difference came when I swapped the pot metal changer fingers for fingers made from 6061 T6 aluminum. I don't recall a major tonal change with the Kline. However there was a noticable change in sustain brought on with the keyless and the solid tooling plate necks that are welded to the original changer body. Also, the bolts at the end of the changer that go down to the end plate were swapped out for 1/4-20s. It also doubles as a thermometer with all that aluminum.

I wish I could be more specific, but it's been 20 years and I did the tuners and neck at the same time, rather than isolate the problem with individual solutions.

The guitar has had pickups on both ends of the necks, holes drilled in it and then filled with bondo, it now has unadjustable legs, multiple pickups and a lot of mileage on it. It's also played on over 50 film scores.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by chas smith on 17 February 2004 at 06:12 PM.]</p></FONT>

Charles Dixon asked how I get the string tight enough. He says that he can't pull it up to 30 or so pounds.
Hey! If you COULD pull it up, then you'd hardly need tuners!
I have never had a problem. When my hands had more grip strength, I just pulled it as tight as I could and then pulled it up and under the set-screw and tighted it down as I was holding it.
The last few years I've had a degenerative disease in my hands and I can't grip very tight. Now I use a pen (always have one) which I wrap the string around and use as a handle.
If you look at the pics of mine on my web page (julianwinston.com) you'll see how much travel I use. The 3red string moves the most. The others come up to pitch within a 1/4". Of course you have to start with the finger completely wound out...

JW

I'm with Winnie on this one. I got my first Kline about 3 weeks ago and after all these years of looking for THE guitar for me and owning most if not all brands of keyless, I can say the Kline IS the guitar for me. If Zum made a keyless,,,,,,,maybe,,,,,,but I am currently considering selling the Zum and finding another Kline. For me it's the best keyless changer, ease of action, tone etc. but it sure looks tough to work on. Fortunatly Joe Kline was kind enough to set it up for me.

Could someone please post a close up picture of a Kline keyless tuner? I would really like to see it.

Also concerning the GFI keyless tuner. I was very intrigued with this when Gene Fields first demoed it in his room at the ISGC some years back. I spent considerable time looking at it, and adjusting it. I spoke with Gene at length about it that year.

I was more than intrigued with HOW he was able to engineer the same amount of travel with different adjuster lengths; using the SAME thread on the adjusters. This is mechanical genious. I asked if he would sell me just the head. He responded he would not.

So I agree this keyless system as some advantages. It also has some cons IMO:

pros:

1. Tuning knobs are great, the best I have seen.

2. The turns ratio for the even and odd tuners are the same. (Ingenious)

3. Esthetically the MOST appealing, IMO.

Cons:

1. The nut is a solid steel bar. No way to stop string rattle at the lower frets. Aslo, while there is a miniscule amount of movement at the nut on a keyless system, there is STILL movement. I feel they need rollers as well.

2. String length too long between nut and asjuster. I will explain:

The sole reason I want a keyless is to prevent hysterisis. (string does not come back to true pitch when it is raised and then lowered; and vice versa).

The cause of this is; the string length from the nut to the keypeg on a keyed guitar, failing to completely come back over the nut, when the pedal or knee lever is released. The amount of detuning, is directly porportional to the length of the string.

So idealy, there should be NO string length beyond the nut. This of course is not possible. BUT the shorter the length the better. This is why I feel it is a "con" on the GFI keyless tuner.

This is also why I want to get the string as tight as possible BEFORE tuning it so as to keep the string length as short as possible.

Incidently, I have found out how to post a picture from my digital video camera. I will be posting a picture of the device I came up with for pretightening the string later.

May Jesus richly bless you all,

carl

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by C Dixon on 18 February 2004 at 08:48 AM.]</p></FONT>

I'd agree with Winnie on both counts: I had a Kline for years and never ran out of tuning adjustment. And I prefer the "chopped off" look--the instruments I'm building now have a 25" string length and overall body length of 27". Tuners/changer is on the left side of the guitar.

I appreciate the good comments by Carl regarding our keyless tuner. However, I do take exception to a couple of items mentioned.
String rattle is normally caused by rattling against the side walls of a "V" groove. There is no string rattle with a single point contact. String rattle against the bar would be the same with keyed or keyless.
Our tuner now has a solid plate across the front of the tuner with a 5/16 nut holder. This allows the starting point of the tuning lever to the contact point on the nut to be slightly over 1/4", much closer than the original design. Last, but not least, all of the detuning between raising and lowering is not caused by the roller nut. Most of it is but some detuning can happen in most pedal steels even if you lock the string down at the nut. This is usually not audible but it is measurable. Keyless helps but is not a total cure.
By the way, on our keyless tuners, the amount of available tuner movement is about twice what is needed to get a string to pitch.
I know this will not convince everyone, but it works for me.

Gene

Lots of opinions and gut feel on these subjects, ..few if any backed up by measurements or diagrams. Now that "photos" are in perhaps there will be some improvement in the communication.

It occurs to me that some PSG makers may have suffered a bit from the negative comments re their instruments or techniques, many of which comments were gut feels and/or personal preferences.

Edp
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by ed packard on 20 February 2004 at 10:37 AM.]</p></FONT>

@Gene: I think Carl means the rattle at the lower frets is because there are no gauged rollers, thus the string height is uneven.

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Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud LLG; Guyatone 6 string lap steel; John Pearse bar; Emmons bar; Evans SE200 amp

Hi Gearless fans,
When I restring my gearless Sierra I use a pair of six inch vice grips that I carry in my extra string box. I wrap the string around the Allen set screw and lock the vice grip on the string and pull tention on it. I then tighten and loosen the Allen screw as I pull. This takes the slack out of the string. You have to be careful as the wound strings will sometimes be over pitched.

D.G.

Moved to 'pedal steel' section of the Forum.

<SMALL>"There is no string rattle with a single point contact. String rattle against the bar would be the same with keyed or keyless."</SMALL>

With much sincere respect to Gene, this is ONLY true if the rollers are not gauged. A number of PSG manufacturers offer gauged rollers so as to make the tops of the strings level at the lower frets.

While most of this endeavor has been less than satisfactory, it is NOT due to the system. Rather it is due to the inaccuracy of those cutting the rollers. IF, the rollers were cut accurately, the tops of the strings WOULD be dead flat at the nut; and thus exhibit NO string rattle at the first few frets.

I am not aware of any rattle (string buzz) at the roller itself. In other words, this is not where the rattle has come from on any steel I have ever owned. It comes from the fact that the tops of the strings are not coplanar level at the lower frets with moderate bar pressure.

I must disagree with Gene also on hysterisis from a pratical point of view. IF there were NO string distance after the nut, there would be NO audible hysterisis. It is possible some could be measured with scientific equipment, but no human could hear it, IMO.

The longer the string distance from the nut roller to its affixing point (IE, keypost or keyless adjusting finger) the more the hysterisis will be evident.

And it is not due to the nut roller itself, if properly lubricated. You can make them out of the finest ballbearings obtainable, and you would STILL experience pretty much the same amount of hysterisis of strings raised, then lowered and released. This is due to the physics and angle the string comes off the nut roller.

I see NO purpose for going to keyless, other than to reduce as low as practical, the hysterisis phenomenon.

The disadvantage of keyless is, many players do not like the sound difference. And there is a difference in the sound produced between a comparable keyless and keyed, all else being equal.

I attribute this to "overtones" of the strings beyond the nut rollers, EVEN when the strings are muted behind the bar! But whatever it is, many notice it; and prefer the sound of a keyed versus a keyless. I would rather put up with the loss of "overtones" and have the strings come back in tune, So I elect keyless.

My ears are sensitive to any string not remaining in tune, whether it be from cabinet drop, hysterisis or JI conflicts. So I must have a PSG that addresses these phenomena, where available.

The keyless ass'y solves the hysterisis problem, the counterforce ass'y solves the cabinet drop problem and I have a few compensators that address JI conflicts. Admittedly, there are some string combinations that are not possible to cure JI conflicts; such as pedal 5 on C6 (B6).

carl

Carl, I had a Zum w/Bela tuners on it for 10 years. It was keyless and there was NO string
length (open)beyond the nut. I would guess perhaps you never saw one. I doubt there were many of them sold. Winnie did a review of them when Larry Cummins (the designer) showed them at St Louis one year. 1988? The post the string wound on at the keyless end
had a sort of clutch that allowed the string to only tighten. The post was in a cam finger
that had adjusting screws. I replaced the original screws with allen head cap screws &
could tune it with my fingers more easily than the GFI, whhich of course was easier than the Sierra in my experience.

Hysteresis: Does not the whole string length stretch? Does not the most string motion (travel distance) happen at the end of the string that the stretching is initiated (tuner while tuning, changer when playing)? The largest length of beyond the nut string is as much a 6 inches (on my Sho Bud); This is only on strings 5 & 6. String 1 is about an inch. The scale length is 24 & 1/4"; Hence we are stretching a string length of about 30 inches in the worst case and 25 & 1.4inches in the best. When playing, most of the stretch motion is at the changer end and most of the stretch is in the string's playing area, not behind the nut/roller or behind the bridge/finger. If the non return to pitch after changer activation is because of string elongation alone it should be worse on the strings that are the longest, and/or on the strings changed the most halftones, assuming relatively equal tensions for the tuned strings. The longer strings should also suffer the most from "cabinet drop", or axle flex, or ?? that changes with changer activation. If the string material is not employed in the "plasticity" section of its stress/strain curve, it will return to pitch if it's temperature does not change, and there are no stiction/friction issues involved, or mechinism change involved. So the question is, is the string length the cause of the "non return to pitch" problem, or is it the stiction/friction, cabinet drop/axle flex, or mechanism shift?

My G# (0.011") moves (stretches) 0.025" measured) at the changer when raised to an A (one halftone) on my 25" scale. I cannot see the motion at the nut/roller end (keyless/gearless), so why do I need a roller on a keyless/gearless structure?

On some instruments, the ball end windings are in contact with the finger on the changer end, ..these windings can dig in and make for a non constant behavior re pitch at the changer end.

The high strings (G# in particular) are not far from their plasticity point when straight, and much closer if bent around a finger. The sharper the finger radius, the worse the problem because the string length is longer at the outside of the bend, hence the tension is greater there. A sign that you better change that string is if it starts not returning to pitch, ..this "hysteresis" problem IS due to the string length change as caused by the mechanism's form.

I will return to this subject after dinner.

Well, back from dinner, ..wrote a lengthy continuation with calculations, examples, measurements and measurement methods re the subject, saw Carl's response, and decided not to post what I had written as analysis appears to be taken as personal criticism, ..not the case.

But in response to his quoting re "why do I need keyless?", I will say that gauged rollers are independent of keyed or keyless tuning mechanisms. The gauged rollers do not eliminate the "string rattle" re the bar at low number frets, ..check the Dia' tolerances on the strings, ..put the + tolerance strings either side of a - tolerance string and see what the difference is, ..this calls for adjustable string height. Bore the shaft hole in the roller off center and rotate the rollers to make the string tops (tolerances considered)in plane. Please keep the tops of the rollers below the tops of the strings so that I don't ding the bar on them when sliding off.

Gene Fields is the resident expert on strings, having dealt with the string manufacturers all these years, ..maybe he would comment on string tolerances, and testing methods.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by ed packard on 20 February 2004 at 07:04 PM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>"so why do I need a roller on a keyless/gearless structure?"</SMALL>

If for no other reason than to get gauged rollers. Since string rattle at the first few frets, is a very frustrating thing for some of us, gauged rollers or some means of getting the strings coplanar at the nut is a positive. Albeit string rattle may not bother some. It is my number one pet peave on any steel guitar.

If you object to the word "hysterisis", fine. But what ever it is called. there can be NO denying that a keyed guitar causes the phenomena of a string which is raised then lowered; then returned will come back sharp. Or if you tuned the lower change first, then a string that is lowered, then raised and released will come back flat.

Tom Bradshaw wrote about this over 30+ yrs ago. I found his thesis then and now to be correct. In it, he showed that a keyless guitar cured the problem. I believe this, because on neither my Sierra or my Excel which are both keyless do I have near the "whatchacallit" as I have on any of my keyed guitars. Also, I have talked to those who have converted from keyed to keyless and the problem is almost totally gone.

At the changer you have a totally different situation. IE, you are not pulling the string over a roller or fixed bar. Rather the changer finger IS the roller. So there is NO "hill" for the string to have to pull over and return so to speak. It is the "hill" that IMO, IS the problem.

True the amount of movement at the nut roller is miniscule when compared to the movement at the changer. However, there IS movement; and relatively, it is JUST as important. In fact because of the "hill" scenario, it is much more important than at the changer end because of the above.

The facts are:

1. Keyed guitars have the phenomenon.

2. Keyless guitars have almost none.

If you want to debate the scientific reasons, then be my guest. I will not engage in it since I am not a scientist. I just know it happens. That is good enough for me. I do think I know why it happens.

carl