Help with my Universal set-up for 5+5?

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

I am planning to add a vertical knee lever to my steel, and to buy some extra parts to add some pulls. My current setup is an Extended E9 w/ 5+4. I am planning to convert the guitar to a Universal w/ 5+5.

There’s a “lean & mean” 5+5 Universal tuning on the Carter website. Also, I looked back and found an older post by Carl Dixon with his proposed 5+6 Universal copedent. Finally, I looked up Buddy Emmons’ C6 tuning and made a chart with it lowered to B6. All three charts are at the bottom.

I realize that by limiting myself to 5+5 there are some things I have to give up as compared to a full fledged Universal tuning—that’s okay though, since it’ll still be more than I have now. What I’m looking for are some opinions about an optimal 5+5 Universal tuning.

One thing I noticed is that I used my G#>G change more than my B>Bb change (although who knows how that might change in the future…). From looking at BE’s chart I see that he has both. Since I can probably only keep one, which is the priority, and why?

The order of the pedals in Bud and Carl’s charts is different. What are the pros and cons of each? Simple preference?

Carl gets the D back two different ways. This might not be possible without the extra lever that Carl includes in his chart—is it?

Should there be a pull to C# on the A pedal on the low B string? What about a lower to an A note instead?

These are just the first few questions that leap to mind, as I ponder my options. I don’t have any idea how best to organize a Universal tuning so any comments, suggestions for improvements—or just additional questions I should ask but haven’t thought of—are welcome.






Bud Carter:





    p1   p2   p3   p4   p5  LKL LKV  LKR  RKL  RKR





F#                (+G)


D#                                    -D       --C#


G#       +A


E                            +F           ++F#  -D#


B  ++C#                ++C#      -Bb


G#       +A            ++A#


F#                 -F


E                            +F       -D        -D#


B  ++C#       +C


G#       +A


E             -D#  +F        +F


B           ---G# ++C#








Carl Dixon:





    P1   p2   p3   p4   p5  LKL LKL2 LKV  LKR  RKL  RKR





F#            +G       ++G#


D#                      +E                --C#   -D


G#       +A


E                            +F  ++F#      -D#       +F


B  ++C#           ++C#                -Bb


G#       +A       ++A#


F#            -F


E                            +F  ++F#      -D#       -D


B  ++C#                 +C                     +++D


G#       +A                                    +++B


E             +F        -D#  +F


B  ++C#      ++C#     ---G#








Buddy Emmons (down to B6):





  LKL LKR   p4  p5  p6  p7  p8  RKL  RKR





C#                           +D


D#                   +E


B                       ++C#     -Bb  +C


G# -G  +A  ++A#         ++A#


F#               -F


D#                   -D


B                            +C


G#         ++A#


E                +F          -D#


B               ++C#       ---G#

-Travis

[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 17 February 2004 at 03:09 PM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Funny,

I don't recall ever giving that chart. But if I was limited to 5 + 5 as you are wanting to do, I would go with Bud Carter's setup with the following changes:

1. Reverse the changes on LKR and RKR.

2. Instead of the change on RKL (4th string raise a whole tone), I would do the following






     LKR





F#     G#


D#     E


G#


E


B


G#     F# (split with the B pedal)


F#


E


B


G#


E


B

I could live without the whole tone raise on string 4 if I had to, but NEVER live without lowering of the 6th string a whole tone. Especially splitting with the B pedal.

carl

A Better Way

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 17 February 2004 at 05:19 PM.]

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Carl,

you offered that copedant in a thread (that I started, which is why I remember) from about a year ago. It wasn't in chart form but I converted it.

Your suggestion for the RKL makes a lot of sense to me. That way I could get the sixth string G note (w/ the split) without an extra lever--which means I would keep the B>Bb change.

Do you have an opinion on the ordering of the foot pedals? In your chart you can use the fifth and sixth string whole tone raise pedal (BE's "P7") with BE's "P8," where as in Bud's chart, "P7" can only be used on conjunction with "P5." Do these pedals get used together very often? Should "P7" be usable with both "P5" and "P8" as in your chart, or does it make more sense another way?

Also, in your chart BE's "P5" can be used with (is next to) the B pedal, in Bud's chart "P8" can be used with the B pedal. Which makes more sense?

Also, what should the A pedal do to the low B string (string twelve)? Nothing? Raise to C#? Lower to A?

-Travis

John Fabian · From: Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.

Splitting the 6th string would not be possible unless the steel had the allen screw type of splits without sacrificing one of the 2 raises on the G# (typically not available on DOUBLE-raise, Double-lower mechanisms like the older MSA's). That is true for Carl Dixon's setup also since the split would require an extra rod and a third raise.

The 5&5 setup was designed to match the changes on Jeff Newmans universal setup which is probably the most popular of the universal setups.

You'll need the B>Bb change to have the ability to lower your top root when playing out of the B6 positions

John Fabian
www.steelguitar.com

[This message was edited by John Fabian on 18 February 2004 at 03:41 AM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

John is correct on those guitars that do not use the "allen" screw type of splitting. I am bad about not remembering that all guitars are not setup with allen screws. I apoligize for that.

As to the location of the standard pedal 8 next to pedal 5, the following is my take on this;

I know Jeff's reasoning for doing it. He feels that they should be together so you can go from one to the other faster than being 3 pedals apart. I disagree with him.

I would rather have the advantage of being able to use pedal 8 and 7 together for that great 11th chord. I use it a lot. And I have had no difficulty in training my foot to go from pedal 5 to pedal 8 in vary rapid fashion.

Secondly, I have Always felt pedal 5 and 7 should be next door to each other. This is why I like that change of lowering the 8th string to a D on a knee lever which emulates pedal 6 on the standard setup.

Incidently, I would NOT play a universal IF pedal 6 was on the floor. For me it simply MUST be on a knee lever since I use it with EVERY single pedal and knee lever that is possible.

Thirdly, to me it makes MORE sense that pedal 5 be next to pedal B because the two can be used together more often. BE does this ALL the time on his C6 setup using pedals 5, 6 and the knee lever that raises his high A to Bb.

Unlike most, I never use pedal 5 and 8 together because of their out of tuneness to my ears, UNLESS one tunes straight ET which most don't.

Finally, I would either lower the 12th string to an A; OR leave it alone on the A pedal. I have never found a use for the C# as a low root note. In fact I rarely use the 11th string E to F note to tell you the truth.

The A/F combination is great for the third inversion of a major chord when playing the upper strings, but I have little to no use for that combination in the lower register, since one has to play sharp of the frets if one tunes JI which I do.

The typical "crying" E9th sounds on the upper strings simply has never done anything for my ears when played on the octave lower bass strings. I know Jeff does it all the time, but it is just not my cup of tea. It sounds like a muddy bagpipe to me. No disrespect to Jeff, please.

So I am considering taking it off my F lever.

carl

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I think that Bud Carter's solution is brilliant! I wouldn't change a thing.

------------------

Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

David Doggett · Posted 18 Feb 2004 12:59 pm

I use the low C# on the A pedal all the time for blues and rock to have a low note with the AB pedals down. It's great for major chord slams down there a la Bo Diddley. For classical music it is also good to have a bass note down there with the AB pedals down, or for the relative minor with just the A pedal. Then there is Travis picking.

The low F gets used occasionnaly to fill out a low diminished chord or arpeggio.

I tried having both the 2nd and 8th strings going to D on the same lever (as in the Carter setup) but didn't like it. There are too many times when you want to get the D on top for the melody, but don't want the root on 8 changing. I presently lower 8 to D on LKR, and on RKR I get the 2nd string D, and lower 9 to Bb.

I would certainly miss the C pedal, but with the Carter setup you get some additional B6 stuff, so it depends on the kinds of music you play.

I like my vertical knee lever to work with pedals down, as it is more natural for me to raise my knee and hit it while my toes are holding pedals down. I currently have LKV raising to the seventh on both strings 1 and 7 with the AB pedals down. This is very useful for blues and rock. But if you play more country, other things might work better for you there.

Your main task is to put the essentials for both E9 and B6 where you want them, and then choose which two or three other changes you can best do without. One of my guitars is an S12 3&4 tuned like a uni. Eventually I will add more stuff to it, but it is amazing how much I can do with it as it is. For me it is way better than an extended E9.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 24 February 2004 at 06:15 AM.]

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

I don't know anything about how "splits" work. Am I to understand that without some additional mechanism using the B pedal with the G#>F# would not work? Is it that it would be out of tune?

Assuming that it would be impossible to get the "split" in tune, is it still worth having that change? What should go there instead?

-Travis

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

I have to agree somewwhat with Bobby Lee.

That Bud Carter B6/E9 is as "Lean and Mean" as you can get.

Only 5 pedals and 5 knee levers does it all! That is the "meat and potatoes" tuning for the working man on a budget.

Adding more pedals and knee levers is for the "Whipped Cream" stuff....al

------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Yes Travis,

When you raise a string from G# to A and the lower from G# to F# at the same time, the resultant G is way sharp. So some means must be made if you want a tunable split. Two methods are currently used on modern PSG's:

1. The Emmons' type "allen screw" method, not available on all steels.

2. The extra raise rod method which is available on any steel, IF there is an extra raise hole left in the changer.

carl

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Okay, here's what I've got so far:



     P1   p2   p3   p4   p5  LKL LKV  LKR  RKL  RKR





F#            +G


D#                                    -D  --C#


G#       +A


E                            +F            -D#  +F#


B  ++C#           ++C#           -Bb


G#       +A       ++A#


F#            -F


E                            +F       -D   -D#


B  ++C#                 +C


G#       +A


E             +F        -D#  +F


B  --A       ++C#     ---G#

(Edit: I've decided that the E>F should go on the LKL. Still wondering about what to stick on the RKR, though.)

Carl's ideas on the placement of the "B6" pedals made sense to me also, so I've adopted that.

I still don't know exactly what to do with the RKR. I've got the E>F# change in this chart, and it makes sense (should it also raise the eighth string to F#?). I'm still open to suggestions, though. I like my seventh string F#>G change on my current tuning, maybe that would be a good choice...

I guess as long as I've got the bell crank on there I can always change back and forth and try stuff out. The twelfth string lower to A is another one--I could easily change it to a C# raise if I felt like trying that instead.

Any final thoughts before I send away for the parts?

-Travis

[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 20 February 2004 at 11:18 PM.]

Steven Black · From: Gahanna, Ohio, USA

I like my pedal setup that Bobby lee gave to me not long ago for my MSA U12 7+5, David Decker set it up for me, He did some things underneath it to give it a somewhat triple raise effect to it and it works really well, thanks David and Rick Troyer.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I would go with 2-3 G#'s to G for minors.
With your LKR D's and RKR you could have relative minor chords 3 frets south.

Depends how much you need minors of course. I do, and minor 7's big time.

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