| Author |
Topic: C6 pedals 5 and 6 for single note phrases |
Quentin Hickey
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
|
Posted 25 Sep 2015 12:57 pm |
|
| I am curious if pedals 5 and 6 on the C neck are used like pedals A and B on the E neck for faster tempo style soloing. Would make life easier keeping up with some faster bebopy type songs. Which players incorporate pedals into theyre licks? Thanks guys. |
|
|
|
Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
|
Posted 25 Sep 2015 1:33 pm
|
|
P5 & P6 really don't do anything close to the A & B pedals on E9. I do use the combination of P5 & P6 to do chord type solos. It will be interesting to see what others do.
Forgot to say, all my single string solos/fills are with no pedals. But, I'm not a good C6 player.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
|
|
|
Quentin Hickey
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
|
Posted 25 Sep 2015 1:36 pm
|
|
| When I hear fast C6 players pick sometimes its hard to tell whether they pick and slide and pick and engage or disengage pedals. Paul Franklin does some lightning fast passages and its really hard to tell. |
|
|
|
Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
|
Posted 25 Sep 2015 1:42 pm
|
|
I'm sure some do use them. Especially the one's that lower the G string to F. Having the F in the middle of the tuning makes less bar movement to play licks. I've watched Emmons, Franklin and others burn it up on C6, most of what I see is no pedals, but I am more than sure they use them.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 25 Sep 2015 3:36 pm
|
|
There are occasions when I'll use the drop on P5 in single note run, dropping a 4 to a 3.
Most of the changes on that neck are for chordal/harmonic purposes.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
|
Posted 25 Sep 2015 3:40 pm Re: C6 pedals 5 and 6 for single note phrases
|
|
| Quentin Hickey wrote: |
| I am curious if pedals 5 and 6 on the C neck are used like pedals A and B on the E neck for faster tempo style soloing. Would make life easier keeping up with some faster bebopy type songs. Which players incorporate pedals into theyre licks? Thanks guys. |
one of my favorite steel solos was in I Don't Even Know Her Name by Alan Jackson.. its not single notes but that 2nd solo near end mostly uses quick movements of P5 and P6 and it kills! Check it out on youtube. The first solo is also killer. .. but I haven't figured that one out yet.
for single note stuff. .. sliding the bar is very intuitive and sounds great...will hold P5 down once in a while too.  |
|
|
|
Quentin Hickey
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
|
Posted 25 Sep 2015 5:05 pm
|
|
| Lane Gray wrote: |
There are occasions when I'll use the drop on P5 in single note run, dropping a 4 to a 3.
Most of the changes on that neck are for chordal/harmonic purposes. |
I kind of figured that Lane but just wanted to confirm. So basically when a guy like Paul makes a solo he is looking at tight nit pockets where he does mostly forward and reverse rolls and sliding one to two frets at a time.
If this is the way most C6 guys think than it will make it easier for me to figure out where they are on the neck. |
|
|
|
Ken Pippus
From:
Langford, BC, Canada
|
Posted 25 Sep 2015 5:07 pm
|
|
| Paul sells a "talk-tab" disc where he teaches C6 speed-picking. He does, in fact frequently toss in pedals 5 and 6 and RKL. Worth getting. |
|
|
|
Kyle Everson
From:
Nashville, Tennessee
|
Posted 25 Sep 2015 10:54 pm
|
|
| Pedal 5 is very useful when lining up notes on strings 4 and 5 for blues/pentatonic/chromatic runs. |
|
|
|
Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
Posted 26 Sep 2015 8:37 am
|
|
The combination of P5 and the lever lowering C to B can create some lovely minor pockets - for Cm, try 6th fret, p5 and lower the C, then let off P5 and go up to 8th with the C lowered. Use strings 2,3,4,5. Not really using the pedal movement to play, but rather creating little pockets to play in...
I'm translating from Bb6 U12, so hopefully that's correct... Hahaha
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
|
|
|
Willie Sims
From:
PADUCAH, KY, USA
|
Posted 26 Sep 2015 9:11 am
|
|
You can create some really good single note and deminish chords, by holding the 5 and 6 pedals down.
And they will repeat ever four frets up our down the fretboard, by changing your string grips. |
|
|
|
Keith Bolog
From:
Wisconsin, USA
|
Posted 26 Sep 2015 11:08 am C6
|
|
You are somewhat on the right track but theory wise there is no solid duplicate.
Pedal 5 gives you, in general, a II chord (plus others)
Pedal 6 gives you, in general, a IV chord (plus others)
The others depend on the grips you use. Its mind boggling to me.
You can noodle around and get a sort of I IV V blues progression with only pedal 6, like the A+B pattern on the other neck. Its way easier to noodle in ignorance and come up with something on C6 v E9 IMO. The voice of experience. 
_________________
Sustainability is unsustainable |
|
|
|
Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
|
Posted 26 Sep 2015 2:22 pm
|
|
Might bear remembering that a (fairly large) part of Chalker's approach to C6 improv used 5&6 together- a lot of diminished substitution, sometimes quite fast. Listening to him it seems like quite a bit of his approach would be difficult to analyze "properly" and theoretically- it sounds very intuitive and theoretically "incorrect"- hence the fire and spice.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
|
|
|
Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
|
Posted 26 Sep 2015 2:27 pm
|
|
This is cool. I'm learning a lot. I would like to have that Paul Franklin talk lesson.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
|
|
|
Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
Posted 26 Sep 2015 6:34 pm
|
|
This is part of why, at Reece's urging, I ended up with the Bb6 U12 - the 6th tuning, which as a jazz player I love, combined with the ability to use some of the E9 style pedal moves, which I'm still working on incorporating into my jazz playing.
The 6th tuning, in general, is a thing of genius, especially when you have the both the high G (F, in Bb6) and the D (C for me) 1st string
Brilliant
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
|
|
|
Markus Mayerhofer
From:
Vienna, Austria
|
Posted 27 Sep 2015 1:23 am
|
|
| Christopher Woitach wrote: |
| The combination of P5 and the lever lowering C to B can create some lovely minor pockets - for Cm, try 6th fret, p5 and lower the C, then let off P5 and go up to 8th with the C lowered. Use strings 2,3,4,5. Not really using the pedal movement to play, but rather creating little pockets to play in... |
Very nice! I did not know that nice variation with pedal 5 from the 2nd scale degree to the b3, but i like this pocket with the B-lower on U12 (C-lower on C6th) since you get a full minor chord on strings 9, 8, 7, 5, 4 and 1 (on the U12) and a nice full range pentatonic pocket...I wonder why this can't be found in any chord chart...?
I found out, with pedal 6 you can substitute the B-pedal change on on string 4 on U12 (string 2 on C6). But i don't know if this is a common practice... |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 27 Sep 2015 7:12 am
|
|
I've looked through what I've learnt so far from Buddy Emmons' Basic C6 course, and I would answer the OP by saying that the way P6 raises the 2nd string is similar to the B pedal on String 3 on the E9; Quentin doesn't mention P7 but that has a similar use to the A pedal especially with the 4th string on top. And P5 is used to fill in the scale in the same way as the string 3 half-tone lower (which is usually on a lever somewhere).
None of these are used for speed however, just to deliver thoughtful phrasing; the main method of transport on the C6 is the bar.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Jamie Mitchell
From:
Nashville, TN
|
Posted 27 Sep 2015 7:57 am
|
|
| Mark van Allen wrote: |
| Might bear remembering that a (fairly large) part of Chalker's approach to C6 improv used 5&6 together- a lot of diminished substitution, sometimes quite fast. Listening to him it seems like quite a bit of his approach would be difficult to analyze "properly" and theoretically- it sounds very intuitive and theoretically "incorrect"- hence the fire and spice. |
might you point me to an example of that? |
|
|
|
Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
Posted 27 Sep 2015 8:48 am
|
|
Many people abandon P4, raising one or both of the A's to B, but the usefulness of having a half step without moving the bar is worth a lot to me, so I have kept it. You could certainly use it in single note playing, both as a "fixed" tuning change, keeping it down, and as an E9 style pedal move, pedal off, then pressed, then play next string.
It's also great for a lick like this, a classic Joe Pass arpeggio with upper neighbor, leading tone, then target chord tone:
Example for D major - (assuming string 1 is a D) - 1st string, 2nd fret, 4th string, 2nd fret, P4, 3rd string, then 1st 5th fret, 4th P4 6th fret, 3rd 6th fret, then 1st 7th fret, 4th P4 7th fret, 3rd 7th fret, go up to fret 14 start all over...
Oddly, Jerry Garcia likes this lick as well, but on guitar
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
|
|
|
Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
|
Posted 27 Sep 2015 9:01 am
|
|
| Mark van Allen wrote: |
| Might bear remembering that a (fairly large) part of Chalker's approach to C6 improv used 5&6 together- a lot of diminished substitution, sometimes quite fast. Listening to him it seems like quite a bit of his approach would be difficult to analyze "properly" and theoretically- it sounds very intuitive and theoretically "incorrect"- hence the fire and spice. |
Another great example of "theoretically incorrect" but "intuitive" "fire and spice" is a fast passage in Gary Carpenters' solo in Moon Glow on his cd. I analyzed it and can tab it out and post it. Totaly incorrect considering the chord the notes or arpeggio is being played over but sounds wonderful. Im sure the 5th/6th pedal is being used to facilitate this fast single note run. This is really interesting stuff and i'd like to learn more about when these things work. Will try to post the Carp riff. |
|
|
|
Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
|
Posted 27 Sep 2015 10:16 am
|
|
| never posted tab on the forum before. Didn't see a sticky on it either. If some could instruct how to do it the way Ricky Davis does i'd be grateful. Maybe I need some software to do it that way? thanks |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 27 Sep 2015 10:53 am
|
|
| Christopher Woitach wrote: |
| Many people abandon P4 |
When I acquired the old pull-release D10 mentioned above it had a P4. When I found that Buddy Emmons didn't use it in his course but instead recommended raising 3 a half step, I converted it.
So I've never got used to having it, but I wonder what led to it falling out of favour. It must have seemed very important at one time to have been numbered 4.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
|
Posted 27 Sep 2015 10:58 am
|
|
'totally incorrect but sounds wonderful'..
wouldn't that make you revisit 'incorrect'? |
|
|
|
Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
|
Posted 27 Sep 2015 11:38 am
|
|
| chris ivey wrote: |
'totally incorrect but sounds wonderful'..
wouldn't that make you revisit 'incorrect'? |
Man... forum posting can be such a touchy and tedious and misconstrued thing. OK... substitute the word "totally" with "theoretically" as worded by Mark van Allen in the above post. Is my meaning more clear now? |
|
|
|
Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
|
Posted 27 Sep 2015 12:00 pm
|
|
Here's a basic turnaround using pedals 5 and 6. It's best played arpeggiated. Remember on the Em7b5 chord to OMIT string 9... you don't want the C note on that chord.
| Tab: |
str. Dm7 G9 Em7b5 A9 Dm7 Db9 CM7
1 8
2 5
3 5 5 7 7 5 8 7
4 5 5 7 7 5 8 7
5 5 5b 7 7b 5 8 7
6 5 5 7b 7 5 8b 7
7 5 5 7 7 8 7
8 5 5 7 7 7
9 7
pedal np 5 6 5 np 6 np
|
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
|
|
|
