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Topic: Buddy on octave-string Sho-Bud on Two Aces Back Together? |
Paul Hoaglin
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Posted 25 Nov 2014 9:47 am |
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I've been listening to the Buddy Emmons/Shot Jackson short-lived "Sho-Bud reunion" album Two Aces Back Together (or Plays The Famous Sho-Bud Guitars, or Sho-Budding Again or whatever the proper title is supposed to be - there are so many on the cover!), and I'm wondering if Buddy used a 16-string (or similar configuration) Sho-Bud for the solos on the first two tracks, "Banks Of The Old Pontchartrain" and "Mansion On The Hill". Being the Big E, I at first assumed he was just able to get perfect octave parts out of the standard E9, but closer listening revealed clues that it might really have had to have been an octave-strung steel. The very first note of the "Pontchartrain" solo is an A flat, the lower octave of which is a minor third below the 10th string B, and then it sounds like a cross-fade back to standard 10-string E9 for the tag at the very end. The solo in "Mansion On The Hill" is structured very similarly, with an octave solo and a non-octave tag to end the song, as if the octave steel was overdubbed. Does anyone (Buddy? you out there?) know any more info? I'm fascinated by octave-string steels (I'm a sucker for 12-string guitar and used to play a 12-string bass in another lifetime) and love hearing them, but there aren't many recordings of them out there (Bob Lucier with Shot, "Maiden's Prayer" from the Cherokee Cowboys' Western Strings, Buddy Charleton on Mr. & Mrs. Used-To-Be), so it was very exciting to hear these solos.
I spent a decent amount time trying to figure out how to play the "Pontchartrain" solo in octaves on standard E9 before conceding that I couldn't do it. I sure did learn a few new grips to try, though, to partially emulate that sound (and maybe a third fingerpick's not such a bad idea for such moments).
And I know Buddy hated making that album and fought mightily with that Sho-Bud Professional, but boy oh boy, did the end result sound good to my ear. The tone is obviously very different from the Blade on the Black Album, but in some ways every bit as luscious. "Hold It" is pretty definitive, and even has some of the same licks as "At E's"!
Greg Cutshaw posted "Pontchartrain" here: http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Samples/BE20%20Track%2020.wma |
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Darrell Criswell
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 12 Jan 2015 9:01 pm
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Justin Trevino talked about this double string steel guitar on his radio show last week. He said to his knowledge the prototype used on the record was the only one ever built and that these were the only songs the guitar was used on.
I had never heard of this before and did a search and didn't find anything. |
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Paul Hoaglin
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Posted 12 Jan 2015 9:31 pm
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| Interesting - well, Sho-Bud certainly made a few 16-strings over time, but maybe this was a special one just for Buddy or used a different configuration. Nice to hear that's it being discussed finally. (Any links to a way to hear Justin Trevino's show?) |
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Darrell Criswell
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 12 Jan 2015 9:37 pm
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Just go to justtrevino.com and there is a link to his show on wednesday from 6-8 central, and sunday 2-4 pm, unfortunately there are no archives in case you wanted to hear what he said about this guitar.
Justin almost weekly discusses some aspects of steel guitar playing and history. He know Dickey Overy and Jimmy Day very well. |
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Paul Hoaglin
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Posted 12 Jan 2015 9:41 pm
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| Thanks, Darrell - too bad I missed that one, but I'll check out his show.... |
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Ernie Renn
From:
Brainerd, Minnesota USA
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Alan Berdoulay
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Posted 14 Jan 2015 5:22 am
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| .....just two pedals on that emmons...... |
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Alan Berdoulay
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Posted 14 Jan 2015 5:23 am
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.....then there's this one.....
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Alan Berdoulay
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Posted 14 Jan 2015 5:35 am
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and......
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Paul Hoaglin
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Posted 14 Jan 2015 6:34 pm
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Ooh, you guys are getting me all worked up. I've had the hots especially for the diamond-pattern single neck 16-er since I first saw pics of it here. Hubba hubba! 
Thanks for that info, Ernie - I had read the story about the "Shoo-Bug" and its use on Western Strings, but didn't think it would've still been around (or welcome!) for the Sho-Bud album (especially not after Shot poured maple syrup on it the first time!). Makes perfect sense musically, though - and makes me lust after something like that all the more! Maybe someday I'll try to build one (with the simplest changer mechanism possible) - yeah, right! A man can dream, though.... |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 15 Jan 2015 5:29 am
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I guess Shot meant it'd look better in maple?
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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Don Drummer
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2015 3:50 pm
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| The Singing Strings album was a compilation album released by Mecca. The tune by the same name was actually Los Golandrinas. I'm pretty sure there was not an octave steel tune on that album. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2015 4:16 pm
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| The difficulties associated with an octave strung pedal steel, while not insurmountable, are formidable! I'd think you would need separate bridge fingers, as the octave strings need to be pulled or lowered different amounts to stay in tune. |
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Paul Hoaglin
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Posted 24 Jan 2015 10:09 pm
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Absolutely - not a project a novice should embark on. But I typically get into things way over my head anyway. Studying the pics I've found of Chas' triple-neck and a couple of others, it's clear that each string needs its own separate finger, but if it's a very simple setup (and most of them were - even the Shoo-Bug only had two pedals), it's possible to get by with about six, maybe eight moving fingers only. Two pedals and one knee lever (okay, maybe two levers if I was super ambitious) would do it for me - part of the fun would be using the different voicing available with judicious picking of the various strings, so not as many changes would be necessary. Simple pull-release solid fingers, no raises and lowers on the same strings - that all makes it a little more doable, I think. Like I said, a man can dream, right?    |
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Paul Hoaglin
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Posted 24 Jan 2015 10:23 pm
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| Don Drummer wrote: |
| The Singing Strings album was a compilation album released by Mecca. The tune by the same name was actually Los Golandrinas. I'm pretty sure there was not an octave steel tune on that album. |
Western Strings and Singing Strings are different albums - I assume Buddy just got the titles mixed up. Western Strings was released in '65, which fits the timeline. There is an audible octave steel on "Maiden's Prayer," but it's heavily reverbed. The great thing about the two songs from Two Aces is that the parts are dry and clear and up-front.
I just love that sound! I know these days you can get a POG2 or whatever and do something fairly similar, but it's just not the same as the real thing.... |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 25 Jan 2015 6:58 am
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| You can also hear a double-strung Sho~Bud guitar played by Buddy Charleton, on the "Mr. & Mrs. Used To Be" album, by Ernest Tubb and Loretta Lynn. I talked to Buddy about that album, and he admitted that while it was novel, it was really difficult to play, and keep that guitar in-tune. |
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Paul Hoaglin
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Posted 26 Jan 2015 7:09 pm
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| Yes, I have a recording of that album too. Buddy C. got a very unique tone out of it! I think it's mainly on "We're Not Kids Anymore," but it might be on a few others - I'd have to go back to check. I'm sure it was hard to play. I figure, though: a.) I have a lot of experience playing 12-string guitars and basses; and b.) I'm so not anywhere near that level of playing that I'd be equally incompetent on an octave steel as I am on regular 10-string, so maybe my lack of skill would result in me finding things that more skilled players wouldn't normally do. Or at least that's what I'd like to believe.... |
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Gary Walker
From:
Morro Bay, CA
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Posted 1 Feb 2015 4:09 pm
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| IN MY COLLECTION OF GUITAR MEMOBILIA, I HAVE AN OLD SHO-BUD BROCHURE WITH THE DOUBLE STRING OPTION. I HAVE YET TO EVER SEE ONE EXCEPT THE PIX ABOVE, BUT WAS ALWAYS FASCINATED WITH THE IDEA. |
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Don Drummer
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 3 Feb 2015 1:36 pm
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| Paul, thanks for the correction. I complimented BE on his only tune on that album. He pointed out to me what the real title of that tune was. This was in 1979 at the Jeffan College advanced class - October of that year. I go5 the impression that he was not happy with the change. |
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Paul Hoaglin
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Posted 4 Feb 2015 8:31 pm
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| Don Drummer wrote: |
| Paul, thanks for the correction. I complimented BE on his only tune on that album. He pointed out to me what the real title of that tune was. This was in 1979 at the Jeffan College advanced class - October of that year. I go5 the impression that he was not happy with the change. |
I bet not - he wrote in "Ask Buddy!" that he was not impressed with Ray's so-called "arrangement" abilities (i.e., simply retitling the song as his band played it and then taking credit as the arranger). Well, he still played a great 20-string part! (Of course!) |
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Chris Templeton
From:
The Green Mountain State
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 20 Aug 2015 8:17 pm
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| Quote: |
| I'd think you would need separate bridge fingers, as the octave strings need to be pulled or lowered different amounts to stay in tune. |
Yes, the fingers that will do the pulls have 2 fingers each and they share the pull rod in the center between them, meaning they each have half a hole. Each finger has an adjustment screw. The pedal is pushed and when it bottoms out at the end of the pull, the strings are tuned to the raised octave pitches. When the pedal is released the adjustment screws tune them to the start octave pitches. Each finger starts in a different place and they end up together at the end.
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