Trimming guitar weight

John Lazarus · From: Tucson, AZ.

Here's an idea that I've been using for a few years to trim the weight on my steel guitars. Just wondering if anyone else is doing this.
Since the legs on most steels are basically inverted microphone stands, I have shortened the inner tube to the minimum I need by cutting it off. I leave enough tube so that a taller player could raise the guitar if needed, but on most of my guitars that means that the inner tube needs to be less that a foot long(often only six or eight inches) rather than the 2 plus feet of steel tube that just sits within the larger leg tube. As far as I can tell, neither the stability nor the tone of the instrument is altered. But after cutting off all four inner leg tubes, the guitar is pounds lighter.

Lawrence Lupkin · From: Brooklyn, New York, USA

And all this time I thought is was those extra carbs.

Peter · Posted 22 Jan 2004 8:11 am

John, what an excellent idea! Thanks!
You could even take out the inner pipes and store them for later, and then use strong PVC pipe or even wood for the new short inner pipes.

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Peter den Hartogh-Emmons 1978 S10 - Fender Artist S10-Remington U12-Hilton Volume Pedal-Gibson BR4 lapsteel-Guya "Stringmaster" Copy-MusicMan112RP-Peavy Rage158- - My Animation College in South Africa

John Lazarus · From: Tucson, AZ.

Peter, I'm not sure if your kidding or not. . . .

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Peter has as great a sense of humor as anyone, but he is also pretty brilliant, look closly a what he is saying, Emmons guitar co. used to use a wood dowell,inner tube spacer to keep the inner leg pipe from going to far up in the outer leg (in the '60s). the dowell pin weighed a lot less than the steel pipe did. So what Peter is saying is correct, and already been done.

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

I am getting ALuminum legs for my MSA Wood lacquer Sunburst S12 Universal -8/5. Aluminum Crossrods, and Aluminum Pull rods. That will bring the Weight down from 39 lbs out of the case to 31 lbs, about the weight of the Carter S12 with 7/5/.

I will be happy with that....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I was just about to think of that..

t

Rick McDuffie · From: Benson, North Carolina, USA

Back when a Twin w/ JBL's was the only amp to have, PA cabinets were HUGE and we were all 30 years younger, nobody cared about guitar weight.

Just making an observation.

Rick

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Years ago, I wouldn't think twice about grabbing my Twin Reverb in one hand, my MSA D10 in the other, and walking up flights of steps! Now, though, it's quite different.

In the second half-century of life, you begin to realize that the only thing Mother Nature generally makes stronger with age is trees.

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

Al,

regarding aluminum pull rods I found a remark by Buddy Emmons on the "Ask Buddy" page of www.buddy-emmons.com:

quote:
Re: 1966 P/P Emmons
From: Buddy
Date: 16 Apr 2002
Time: 10:21:33

Comments
I agree, Nick; it was a great feeling. I tried for over twenty years to get my cousin to trade his bolt-on for one of my guitars. When I finally talked him into it, I made the mistake of having someone in Nashville convert it to an all pull guitar. It ended up with aluminum pull rods, which aluminum is near the bottom of the list of metals for expansion and contraction tolerance. When I asked him why he did it, he puffed up and said, "I USE ALUMINUM RODS ON ALL OF MY GUITARS." I just shook my head and thought, "If you don't know any better by now, I won't be the one to bail you out." To make a long story short, I gave the guitar to Terry Crisp and he still has it. I did have tuning problems with my first bolt on when I wasn't in a temperature-controlled environment, but when this clown added the aluminum pull rods; it drove the final nail in the coffin.

Quite some time ago, the desired material for cross rods was also discussed on this forum. If I remember correctly, the consensus was that aluminum tends to flex while stainless steel will not, or much less so.

The advantage of a lighter guitar might carry the disadvantage of tuning problems. Titanium would be an alternative, if it wasn't so expensive.

Just a thought,
Rainer

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Remington D-10 8+7, Sierra Crown D-10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S-14 gearless 8+5, '77 Emmons D-10 8+4, Sho~Bud Pro-I 3+5, Fender Artist D-10 8+4, Peavey Session 400 LTD, Peavey Vegas 400

Tony Rankin · From: Land O’ Lakes, FL

I purchased some really nice, light weight aluminum legs, which I thought would significantly ease the carrying of my big-bodied Sho~Bud LDG. It did! However, I quickly quit using them. With the new legs, the guitar "walked" around too much to suit me and I should point out that it is not because the knee lever action is stiff. I have the Marrs conversion done to this guitar and it's action is very smooth and easy.

The aluminum leg idea didn't work for me. Your mileage may vary!

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Aluminum has about 1/3 the tensile strength of steel. If you used 16ga wall tubing for the legs, there should be a lot more flex unless you use 7075 alloy, .

I'm currently designing a guitar to replace an effects guitar, Guitarzilla, that I use, which weighs about 110# in the case. Last summer I made a 10 string lap guitar with a 25 1/2" scale out of 1" titanium tubing that can bolt on to the side of Guitarzilla and give me a 4th neck for those times when recognizablepitches are needed.

The next one will be a titanium framed pedal guitar with 12 strings on the front neck and an 8 string bass neck on the back. The idea is that it's primarily for effects, so it will have bolt-on "attachments" (rod assemblies that can be bowed and struck), the bass neck will have pickups on both ends and the 12 string neck will have to be able to accomodate anything that I might be called on to do in a session.

I'm currently working on a kind of universal tuning that has the least amount of pedals and knee levers that I might need. If I had to do country-ish playing, it will need the A, B and C pedals with 2 or 3 knees and if it had to be C6-ish, then I need the 5 and 6 pedals. If it's "art music" then I need alot of half and whole step intervals and if it's metal, low octaves and 5ths. Right now it's looking like an extended E9, 13 that can become a low A6 or a C6,9 with the country A,B and C pedals. So 5 pedals and 3 or 4 knees.

All the pedal and knee mechanisms weigh a lot, so this will have 3/8" titanium tubing for the cross shafts (surplus price, 85cents an inch).

Titanium legs, 3 solid, one adjustable. Aluminum sheet for the fretboards, pocketed aluminum for the panels and changer/bridge thingies.

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Charles-- that titanium sounds good. I would get that if I knew where to purchase it.

By the way on the aluminum pull rods, I have the heavier dense rod , much stronger than the regular rod.

Rainer--Thanks for posting the Buddy Emmons comments.

If BE says it wont say in tune with alum pull rods. I'll believe that. I haven't tried it yet, just getting all the parts together.

But one thing I can't stand playing is a guitar that you can't keep in tune. Right now, My MSA stays in tune very well.

But if it changes after I get the aluminum rods in, I'll change them and try to get Titanium .

It seems that the New MSA Millenium has already thought of that.

For lightweight and quality, it looks like a winner. But I can't afford it at this stage of my life. .....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Chas> WOW!!!! you continuously amaze me with your innovations my friend....that sounds Awesome.....
Ricky

[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 22 January 2004 at 10:18 PM.]

John Lazarus · From: Tucson, AZ.

Wow, such complex space age ideas!
What I have suggested requires either a hacksaw or small pipe cutter and less than half an hour of time. There is no cost involved beyond that, and your steel guitar may weigh 5 pounds less immediately.
Carrying around dead and useless weight makes little sense to me, and I suspect the steel guitar leg manufacturers would specify shorter inside tubes if they weren't just buying standard(read inexpensive) microphone stands. It falls to us to do the minor customization required here.

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

John-Thanks for you post on Weight. I wish some of these builders would check into all this, it is not that expensive as you say.
I understand the Carter has aluminum crossrods already.
My MSA has steel, and when I put in 13 aluminum crossrods, I will save 2 lbs on that. With 30 Pull rods of aluminum or titanium , I will save 4 lbs, and on the aluminum legs instead of steel, I will save 3 lbs. Total of 7 LBs+. That is a very inexpensive way to go and not have to carry around that Excess weight.
I have bought guitars and considered the weight in the process. Carter,Excel,Williams,GFI all excellent guitars.
Now I am going to get my MSA weight down to The weight of say a Carter. Oh happy day.......al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

John Hawkins · From: Onalaska, Tx. on Lake Livingston * R.I.P.

Do not forget to consider two cases !

One for the cabinet and one for the pedal bar,pull rods and legs .

Sure makes it a lot lighter hauling around .

John

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Solid aluminum cross rods on a guitar that has a center support (like the old MSA's) are fine. However, aluminum pull rods are a no-no on a all-pull guitar! Aluminum pedal rods are also okay if they're formed (on the hook-end) properly, but they'll wear faster than steel rods.

The idea of cutting off the center section of the legs is something most of us have already done. If you like the steel legs, you can also save a little by using aluminum collars instead of the steel ones (Emmons did this). Don't forget to keep the "accessories" out of the steel case (cords, pedals, strings, and anything else). If you have a heavy (vinyl) leg/rod bag, consider getting one that's made of flannel, as that will also you a pound or two! Don't have pull-rods any longer than necessary. Also, on old MSA Classics, consider eliminating the rear aluminum cover-plate, or make one out of 1/4" poplar, and just paint it silver. The strength it adds isn't really necessary on the rear of the cabinet.

Steven Black · From: Gahanna, Ohio, USA

I used copper tubes for the inner poles, worked well. steveb.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Copper's heavier than steel of the same thickness. No weight savings there. Race car afficianados have a saying..."Rather than trying to trim 100 lbs. somewhere, think of 1600 places you can trim just an ounce".

Think a total of 10 lbs. isn't enough to worry about? Try setting two 5 lb. bags of sugar on your (cased-up) steel, and then picking it up!

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Or put about 20 lbs on your midriff and stand up.....

Sam White R.I.P. · From: Coventry, RI 02816

I got two sets of legs from Sam Gibson in Hampton Mass. and they are made out of Aircraft aluminum.The four legs do not weigh as much as one regular leg that comes with the steel.I know that part his E-mail i samachine i do not remember the rest.Check www.onlinesteelers.com
Sam White

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