Accessing the LKV

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 17 Jan 2004 12:38 pm

First real question...

I'm a bit perplexed with physically accessing the LKV. I seems like a lot of effort for a short guy like me. Is there a rule of thumb for positioning the LKV without restricting access to the LKL.

Also..My LKV seems to have much more mechanical play than the other knees. Normal, or..adjustment required?

77 MSA if it makes a difference in your responses.

Thanks in advance.

HowardP

------------------
Howard Parker
poobah@resoguit.com
www.resoguit.com
ListOwner RESOGUIT-L

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 17 Jan 2004 1:24 pm

You don't want any "play" in a vertical KL.
Needs to have very short travel for convenience sake. My recollection of the verticals on the old MSAs left much to be desired....no where near enough adjusment. 1st nice vertical I ever played was on a Mullen & the GFI wasn't far behind. Both had adjustments enough to suit anyone as I recall! and you still need to get it out of the way to close the case![This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 17 January 2004 at 01:26 PM.]

Ward Wilsey · Post by **Ward Wilsey** » 17 Jan 2004 2:41 pm

Same problem, and I've got the same question...

I'm playing a ShoBud professional. The only time I use the vertical lever (right now) is with the A&B pedals down for a 7th chord doing Mooney type licks (Swingin Doors, etc.). I've got my pedals down and my heel way in the air, takes a lot of effort. Is this right?

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 17 Jan 2004 3:18 pm

On my GFI, I can adjust how far the lever hangs down and the length of travel. My advice is to let it hang down as low as possible as long as you can still get your knee under it and can close your case without having to readjust it. Then, as previously mentioned, choose the shortest travel possible on the bellcrank and changer. Then you can adjust how far up the lever will travel where, again, shorter is better. I notice that, on the Green and White video, Tommy uses his to lower the 6th string a whole tone. And it sounds and looks like he uses it with LKL (he seems to have a Day setup) to get a V chord in the pedals up position. I lower the 5th string a half tone and use it sometimes in combination with LKR. I also raise the 4th string on the C6 neck with it. [This message was edited by Dave Birkett on 17 January 2004 at 03:33 PM.]

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 17 Jan 2004 3:31 pm

Thanks all...

It seems as tinkering is in order.

hp

------------------
Howard Parker
poobah@resoguit.com
www.resoguit.com
ListOwner RESOGUIT-L
77' MSA Classic D-10

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 18 Jan 2004 2:02 am

Don't let shutting the case compromise the positioning of a vertical lever. My LKV has a quick release bolt so that it can be removed completely before shutting the lid.
The lever can then be made longer, so that it goes past the LKL when LKL is activated, improving playability.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 18 Jan 2004 2:56 am

A very wise Steel guitar builder ( John Fabian) showed me a trick or two for applying this knee lever..using it in a series of changes using the E lower, E raise and sliding 1 fret forward with the Bb lever you can maintain a common note on the E string..

As far as setup goes, mine is set as low as I can get it and has zero play..kinda like the gas pedal in a Viper.. like anything else it just takes a little getting used to..
It is a very positive movement with a solid stop and do keep in mind I'm a short transplanted Yankee..

try this 7 step phrase out of the C7 Chord on the 1st fret ( 5 chord for the key of F )

strings 8,6 and 5..common for all 7 steps

1 1st fret B pedal and E flat lever
2 1st fret B pedal only
3 1st fret B pedal and E Raise lever
4 slide up 1 fret using Bb + E Raise levers
5 1st fret B pedal and E raise lever
6 1st fret B Pedal only
7 1st fret B Pedal and E Lower lever

4 notes off of the E string.. you can do this without the Bb lever by playing the last phrase off of the 7 th string, but you loose the emotion of the 4 notes sustaining off of a single string..

This is a turn used in Rose Colored Glasses
on the 5 chord in the key of F..made famous by you know who..

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 18 January 2004 at 08:12 AM.]

Winnie Winston · Post by **Winnie Winston** » 18 Jan 2004 3:11 am

Sigh...
Akll these problems would be resolved if you had a Kline (although I can't speak for other guitars except those that are being complained about).
The Kline lever is completely adjustible as to height, and it folds into the case. See my website-- julianwinston.com. I have a whole description of it.
I have it adjusted so it is just above my knee. The LKL (both of them) hang lower, so I can get to them. I can push either LKL or the LKR and push the vertical at the same time.
The Kline is the first guitar I really had a useful vertical on, so it's the only one I can talk about.

JW

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 18 Jan 2004 6:46 am

Vertical knee levers have always appeared to me to be an after thought. All of the above problems I have noted since day one.

I will add one more. All I have seen pivot from either the left or the right end of the lever. To me this is just wrong. The reason I feel this way is more and more players are using the vertical lever with LKR and LKL. I call it getting in the "corners".

This means the amount of travel is not consistent because of the pivot point. The other problem I find wrong is most of them are just too short. Yet, if they make them longer it only exacerbates the above problem.

Several years ago, one of our forumites (I regret I have forgotten the gentleman's name) posted pictures of a unique vertical knee lever he designed for his Sierra. So intriqued by this lever, I designed one quite similar. And it is one of the best things I ever did on any of my PSG's. The secret is the pivot point. IE, it does not pivot from left to right; rather it pivots from front to back.

This means the amount of travel is indentical regardless of where the knee makes contact with it. This also permits the lever to be much longer with NO increase in the amount of travel.

I went one step further. I designed it so it could be adjusted up and down AND it would easily fold completely down into the cabinet so the case could close.

I can't tell you how much I love this lever now. I adjust it so it is about a 1/4" above my knee with my feet on the pedals. The amount of travel is about a 1/2".

The only other problem I have been unable to overcome; is having to use the floor as a pivot point for my toes to raise my leg. I find lifting my entire leg up is too difficult for me. So I need to press against the pedals or the floor. This means I would like to have a change that was ONLY used when the pedals were down.

Copedent requirements made this impossible. But with this lever, and the short travel; plus it being very close to the top of my knee; makes it much better when I have to come off the pedals and use the floor to push the lever up.

In time, I believe the vertical lever will pivot from the front to the back; OR go up and down on a set of scissor levers like an elevator as more and more players start to use them and the complaints that ensue are heard by the builders.

carl

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 18 Jan 2004 7:49 am

I guess I've been lucky, but two of the three primary brands I've played have adjustable verticals. I consider that a major selling point. I had Mike Cass install one of the positive stops like on a LeGrande on my push-pull, but it still requires a lot of wrenching to adjust -- it DOES have a POSITIVE STOP, however. Unless they've changed it, the LeGrande offers no adjustment, but several brands just use a setscrew tapped into the piece that mounts to the cross shaft. Works great on my Fessy. My old Zum was easily adjustable too -- probably the most solid knee levers of any guitar I've ever played.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Bill Erb · Post by **Bill Erb** » 18 Jan 2004 8:06 pm

Hi Howard
Long time no see. If I am understanding your post correctly the guitar sounds like it is to high for you. My thought would would be to adjust your vertical lever with the least amount of play and then lower your guitar to where your leg is all but touching the vertical. This would allow you to raise it with the least leg movement.

------------------
BILL ERB

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 19 Jan 2004 3:18 am

Mike Cass put the verticals on my push-pull and he got them on just right. They are toward the back of the guitar as far as they can go, and have about 1/4 of an inch of travel at the most, maybe less. Anyway they work great. I have tried other Emmons guitars with verticals and some seem really awkward.

------------------
1985 Emmons push-pull,Evans SE200

George Kimery · Post by **George Kimery** » 19 Jan 2004 4:32 am

Joe Kline had the perfect vertical on his Kline Guitars. You just turned an allen screw, you could even do it by hand, to adjust the lever up and down as much as you wanted. But, Joe's mechanical genius was the little thing-a-ma jig release that you just pulled back with one hand, thus releasing the vertical to fold completely flat to fit into the case. Ingenious.

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 19 Jan 2004 12:58 pm

Bill,

How are you.

I'm a bit vertically challenged if you recall. This guitar sits about as low as it gets

I'm getting together with Mike Auldridge on friday. He'll go over the guitar and advise me on anything he thinks I should take care of...and lessons!

Cheers

hp

Bill Erb · Post by **Bill Erb** » 19 Jan 2004 2:45 pm

Hi Howard
Mike will know what to do. I have to install spacers in my front legs of the steel and buy extentions for the the pedal rods in order to get my legs under my normal hight steel. This is why I cannot play most people's steels. I have a idea that your steel even adjusted as low as you can get it is still to high for you. Who ever had this steel before you may have it set up for a taller person.You may have to cut and rethread your pedal rods and legs to bring the guitar down so you can reach the vertical. This also would reflect how your arm reaches accross the fret board playing the strings. The pedal steel is one of the most personal instuments I have ever saw. Take care Howard. It been very nice chatting with you.
Regards

------------------
BILL ERB