The Steel Guitar Forum

The double stop "D" knee lever lowers the 2nd string D# to D to produce the I7 or E7 chord in open position.

I think I've got that but what is the function of the C# on the 9th string and the 2nd string double stop?

First, the purpose of the double stop is so you can get both a D and a C# on one lever. The C# is sometimes used as a unison note with the A pedal. With the unison, you can now let off the A pedal and the lever at the same time, and you will get strings 2 and 5 going in opposite direction. Cool lick used often by many, but in my mind, Buddy Emmons used the change most effectively. The C# is also a scale tone for the E scale. you are able to run from string 5 to string 3 without having to use any pedals or levers, causing moving sounds. It's not exactly a scale, but I use it often, especially going backwards from the 3rd string. I use it at times.

The 9th string to C#. I don't use this change, so I can't tell you much about it's use. But, it is used a alot as the point where string 2 half stops at D. You would tune the D note with the 9th string nylon tuner. If it was set up correctly, the 2nd string would stop at D, but there would be no change to the 9th string. Only when you go past the additional resistance that you now have because of the extra string pull do you get the change on the 9th string to C#.

The 9th string is less important than the 2nd to most of us.
It's a whole lot easier to play the Emmons Cross if you drop it to C# https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hiOsYDegw0U

I show a few uses of C# here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EdfmMfzvcI4


If you like the modern approach and vocabulary of going into and out of unisons, it's an important part. I also combined it with the 1&2 raise here; https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XUykptG6DBQ

John Prather wrote:The double stop "D" knee lever lowers the 2nd string D# to D to produce the I7 or E7 chord in open position.

I think I've got that but what is the function of the C# on the 9th string and the 2nd string double stop?

We'd need to know which copedent you mean. There is this:
http://www.jeffran.com/tuning.php
It does not have a (2)D#->D move at all but it has a D lever.

A (9)B->C# is just the A pedal. I am not at all sure what the (2)D#->D/C# is for since I've never had the C# there, but it seems part of the E major scale, the B major scale and would make for a 9th in the B6 world.

It's possible you mean that you have a (9)D->C#; that makes an E9 more of an E6(???) .... thing. I would at times retune (9)D to C# for giggles on my S10. Then again, I never did make friends with the 9th string on E9.

Could you clarify, so that I have a better picture of what you are thinking about:

You say "Universal" and you did show us your U-12 setup the other day. But it sounds like you are asking about the 9th D String raise to C# of an E9 setup.

Am I confused or are you studying E9 theory even though you have a Uni (which does not have a D string down there).?

I'm referring to a standard Emmons setup for E9 10 string. HERE > http://b0b.com/wp/?page_id=734

The A Pedal moves B on the 10 and 5 string to C# creating the major 3rd interval for the IV chord (A open) using the B pedal. No confusion here.

To make the open E7th requires the addition of a minor 7th that is D. The "D" Knee appears to be the only thing that will give you that 1st position.

Maybe I'm digging too deep, just a part of my own learning process. The V7, Dominant 7th is far more important but someone tossed that D in there for a reason.

I'm still confused by the word "Universal" in the title of this thread while the discussion is about the use of the 9th string D>C# change to make the feeler stop on the 2nd string----that 9th string change does not exist on a Universal.

But I'm not looking to sidetrack.

Something that may/may not be relevant:

I have a bunch of changes combined on one lever or pedal that do not relate to one another. One rarely or never strums across the whole neck. A pull on the top couple of strings does not need to be harmonically consistent with a pull on the lower strings. It is just a good opportunity to have a couple of different things going on that will not likely conflict with each other.

Also, there are several other locations for Dom7. A nice E7 is at fret 5, E lever lower plus B pedal.

Yes, I have a U-12 but I'm first trying to learn the E-9 portion of the U-12. Some of the knees move and other change or get merged with other functions. I've played E9 a little so comparing the copedents gives me a lot of insight by referencing the E9th portion of the instrument and learning the variances.

The RKR had the D/C# on the 2nd string.

I know that all strings are never used and there there can be irrelevant notes in any combination. I am just trying to relate theory to the pedal and knee combinations.

Newman liked combining the 2nd string drop with the E lowers to get the equivalent of the 1st string D once you engaged the B6th pockets.
I don't like that idea.

I find the C# on the 2nd string so useful that I tune the string to that note and raise it to D and D#. B.J.Cole. does the same thing, as did Weldon Myrick.

I hate half stops, so I raise the string on 2 different knee levers.

I noticed that one. I've been studying a lot of U-12 Copedents including Reece Anderson., Jeff Newman, Zane King and others appropriate to my 7-5. Comparing them to Standard E-9 10 string Emmons setup and searching for similarities/variances. A curious study, I know but I'm learning a lot. Probably a symptom of my engineering background.

My U-12 has the E drop combined with the 2nd string drop on the RKR. I was curious about the function.

What do you suggest/prefer?

John,

When dealing with comparisons between straight E9 and E9/B6 you will run into certain compromises. These are the result of either issues to make the tuning work or, less often discussed, mechanical issues. Sometimes there is a relation between the two. In the case of the 2nd string lower using a half stop, there are tuning related and mechanical issues involved. You do need the D note on the lower strings to realistically play some E9 runs/licks. The D note comes from either lowering string 8 or raising string 9. I prefer the raise on string 9 as it puts the D where I expect it after years of playing S-10 and D-10 guitars. It is quite a long pull to D from B. The pull length makes the D to D/C# feel stop on string 2 unworkable... on most guitars, and for most players. You could probably get a workable half stop if you lowered string 8 to D instead.... I don't like the change there. I really like the traditional D/C# half stop on string 2. I use it all of the time on 10 string guitars, but have had to split out the change to 2 different levers on the Uni. Lowering 2 to C# with the E lowers makes a lot of sense for the B6 side of the tuning... like the D on top of the C6. It is really clunky with the E9 side though as there are a lot of classic fills/riffs that need the E note to ring in conjunction with the D#-D-C# move.

There are many other examples of compromise on both the 6th and 9th sides of the Uni tuning.... so you make choices. Straight comparisons just based on the available notes can lead down a rabbit hole.

As a clarification, I consider the Uni as one big tuning, but use the B6 side E9 side language as a reference to describe changes.

That is what I was looking for. I can see some of the compromises. My Uni has only the D on the second string and even though my experince with E9th is limited, I DO MISS that D on the 9th string. I can do a 3 raise but it is a long reach.

Thanks

I should mention that the same lever that raises my 2nd string to D, also lowers the 8th to the same note.

Again I cite B.J. Cole, who does the same thing. It can't be a coincidence that we both are exploring the same styles of classical music, and both came up with essentially the same copedants.

If I didn't have to play country sometimes on the Uni, I would drop the 8th string to D rather than raise 9. I have the 2nd string lower to D on the same lever that raises 9.

I don't think that the Uni tuning in and of itself as compromised at all.... but if you expect to duplicate every change on D-10, then there are compromises. You can get all of the notes, but how you get there has a lot to do with the music some times.

i don't know much about u12 tuning. why can't you have the 9 string d? are the bottom strings (11 and 12) both absolutely necessary?

The 'traditional' U-12 (E9/B6) has the lower 10 strings identical to the C6 neck but down a half step to B6. A D-10 player can theoretically sit down at a U-12 and play C6 (B6) once he gets accustomed to where he's at on the 12 strings.
Losing the D string from the E9 side of things is the necessary compromise that keeps the B6 side of things intact.

thnx...never realized that about the bottom 10 being just like c6.

Richard Sinkler wrote:The 9th string to C#. I don't use this change, so I can't tell you much about it's use.

One use is to resolve the E7 on 9,8 & 6 to A (with the B pedal).

Richard Sinkler also wrote:But, it is used a lot as the point where string 2 half stops at D. You would tune the D note with the 9th string nylon tuner. If it was set up correctly, the 2nd string would stop at D, but there would be no change to the 9th string. Only when you go past the additional resistance that you now have because of the extra string pull do you get the change on the 9th string to C#.

My pull-release is set up differently. The 9th string starts to lower straight away and is timed so that when it reaches C#, string 2 has reached D. There is a spring behind the collar on the 9th string pull rod which compresses as you push the 2nd string on down to C#. This way string 9 gets down to C# quicker than the way Richard describes, although his does track the octaves of D and C# should you want them (which I don't).

Yeah. Pull/release guitars are a different animal, but I have never worked with, or on one. When I made my first post, I missed the "Universal" part, therefore not thinking he didn't have a D on his 9th string.

Jon Light wrote:The 'traditional' U-12 (E9/B6) has the lower 10 strings identical to the C6 neck but down a half step to B6...

The bottom nine strings. To match traditional C6 intervals, string 3 would also need to drop to F# which most all-pull changers can't handle easily (the F# is of course still available on string 1). It's a compromise from a real C6 neck, but can still do the trick.

Gaa. Yes. Quite right.

And to further circle around the proper answer until I get it right, the 'same string sequencer as the C6' is when the E lower lever is engaged (or locked).