The Steel Guitar Forum

Have any of you made on honest effort to explore and/or play stuff in JERRY BYRD's C Diatonic tuning?

No, but I've been experimenting with others: (hi->lo) D B G E C G or D B G E D G.

I couldn't find his diatonic tuning; can you spell it out?

I spent a little time on JB's diatonic about 10 years back. I was really intrigued when I discovered some of the harp-like cascades that were possible but I found it hard to wrap my head around so never went further.

Here's an interesting 2001 discussion about JB's diatonic; Some of it from "JB" himself:
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/002505.html

I charted a full CMaj7 10 string diatonic a few years back, after roughing out some box charts it looked like it could go beyond the C6 nav work I did and wanted to see what refined charts would show, persuant to doing pretty much what I did for the 6th tuning. The refined chart showed phoenominal things, such as all modes laid out on 1 fret and also laid out in boxes if you're thinking / playing in triads and harmonies 1, 3, 5, (6), 7, 9, 11, 13, ...and could even add that (6th) in to have 6th tuning (skip-strings) to boot, ...and b7, 2, 4, (5), 6, 1, b3, 5 on the downscale end of a downscale box and 2, #4, 6, (7), b9, 3, 5, 7 on the upper end of an upscale box, showing all modes exist (selectively) on 1 fret at both ends of boxes as well. And of course you can combine skip-strings harmony with diatonic on the same fret or box-ends frets. Actually, all modes exist on every fret on the neck, it's the root notes that float along the neck / frets. Moding non-church modes and scale qualities are all withing a few frets, such as Buddy E's super locrian.

It looked like pulls behind the bar would be "required" for slants, but some phoenominal such-slants were all over the place; Jazz to the max I never got a chance to dig into.

Before I got going on that project, some serious family matters intervened, compounded, started backing up and falling evermore behind, couldn't keep my shop going so it's sat pretty much fallow for a few years now, and I just now finished the most recent round of a year's work fighting dim-wit minimalists warming seats in the fascist Veterans Admin (M.I.C. chicken hawks in washington guarding the $$$$$ hen house)(bitter? ...you bet). So it will be awhile before I'd be able to resume the diatonic work. But I'd enjoy joining in discussing someone else's "threadzilla" on a full diatonic tuning, ...rather than it not getting done; It's there waiting.

Youtube also has some diatonic non-pedal videos I ran across searching for > Jerry Byrd diatonic <; But JB wasn't mentioned in those videos and I didn't have time to listen closely to determine exactly what those diatonic tunings were.

Gotta run; Just happened to wake up and couldn't get back to sleep so came here waiting for sleep meds to kick in; They're kickin' in.

Very Best to All.........

Couldn't help it; Alice and the Dormouse made me do it. Looks a little blurry ... can't tell if it's me or the chart.


Nut is on the far left; 12th fret on the far right:

I experiment with diatonic tunings occasionally, and some beautiful sounds are available... scale runs, half steps over minor chords, and a lot of interesting sounds that are not available on most chord based tunings. But the player has to be careful and do a lot of string skipping and selective picking of strings to avoid train wrecks.

Here's a solo steel tune I recorded a few years ago on either C diatonic or A diatonic, I can't remember which ----> https://soundcloud.com/doug-beaumier/a- ... eel-guitar

I think it is a great tuning if you have a lot of arrangements worked out. If you are an improvising player, not so much. I fall into the latter category, so it's not a tuning I can use. Would be OK ona triple neck, though.

I think the feel and mental unfamiliarity of the full diatonic tuning, especially having to skip strings for familiar territory, holds back tackling (woodshedding) the tuning. It seems to me that a "trick" would be spending about 3 months woodshedding using only a certain tuning's skip-strings, such as C6 or choose another preferred tuning's skip-strings from the full diatonic. That would retrain brain / hand muscle motor feel / familiarity / habit with skip-strings; And in 3 months the curiosity and "stumbling" on diatonic strings / notes should work diatonic into the scheme ready to proceed with the full diatonic. ...Or it seems anyway; I've NOT played the full diatonic to any meaningful degree. A few years ago I strung / tuned an old 10 string pedal steel (sans pedals) to the full diatonic, and approached it as skip-strings C6, expecting it to not be much more difficult than learning different tunings grips; But it did feel a bit strange, and probably a bit more stumbling on undesired strings than learning a different adjoining-strings tuning; But it seemed it would be reasonably easy to learn with some time; But I didn't fully foresee the family / home / house / shop storms on the horizon which shut down that project. But but but........

Bailiff, take that keyboard away from that crazy old man in the back...........

The first time I read about "diatonic tuning" I took it to mean exactly that, and I built a lap steel with 14 strings tuned A B C D E F G A B C D E F G. I got nowhere with it.

As you probably know, I've been building historical instruments for about fifty years, and the term "diatonic instrument" has been used over the centuries to refer to instruments such as the folk harp, psaltery, xylophone, etc., made to play in only two keys ...Amin and C, and having one string or plate per note. So I automatically assumed that "diatonic tuning" would be just that ...tuned like a harp.

I'm still not sure what tuning Jerry was referring to. Would someone please elucidate that.

I think it is a great tuning if you have a lot of arrangements worked out.

I too am MUCH more atuned to improvisation than arrangements. When I was taking lessons from Jerry B, and worked up to the C6 tuning, I was working almost entirely from the arrangements of JB's lessons tabs, ...amounting to repetitive reciting (although with much "chicken skin" joy). But during that period, when a year's search for a congruent C6 fretboard template & math led to unlocking the modal / substitution template, ...literally within hours I was able to improvise in any scale / mode quality in any key MUCH MUCH more and better than ever before, ...and within 3 months was able to play steel guitar quite freely to just about "anything" I desired (a bit of an overstatement) in different genres I liked, where as previously I was mostly reciting JB's and other tabs and ear-learned "songs".

I'm speaking from several years thinking about the full diatonic, ...and I have a strong intuitive suspicion that the full diatonic could be ground breaking; But will take more time than I will have in the foreseeable future.

I used a 10 string Diatonic tuning and practiced with it quite bit but it can be hard on the ears with all the half tones. You have to proceed with caution at all times.
I added a few pedals to my setup but they have to be used selectively as you most likely raising or lowering to note(s) that are already in the tuning.
Link to listen.........DIATONIC STRINGS

http://picosong.com/mnkV

I will risk not staying on the topic. Sounds nice Roy.
Joe Elk

Alan Brookes wrote:I'm still not sure what tuning Jerry was referring to. Would someone please elucidate that.

Alan, here is Jerry's description of the tuning, taken from an earlier discussion on the topic:

I kept “hearing” a chord in my head that I know would give me a new dimension and after much twisting and turning of tuning keys and changes of string gauges, I found it—this was sometime in the early 50’s. I ended up with the “alphabet” and the formula came out from bottom to top as:

E-F-G-A-B-C(D)-E

I have the D in parenthesis because it completely made the whole thing un-palyable and was only in the way-and besides-I’d need an 8-string neck. So- off it came- or should I say “out it went” and so it ended up with “E to E without the D.” And my “lost chord was there on the 6th, 5th, 4th, 3rd and 1st strings. And I still had my E and C on top.

In all these years of enjoying Jerry's music and style I had never attempted to experiment with his C diotonic tuning until I bought another CD by Jerry, and it was obvious he was using this tuning on a couple of songs. So I decided to put it to the test. I picked one of my double neck guitars to experiment on On the botton neck I have the standard C6th with the D on top. The top neck has the C diotonic. The bottom 7 strings is tuned the way Jerrys ahd his. I added two more strings on top . 1st string is a D and second is a G. I'm stiil kind of clumsy on it because of the different fingering but it is an intriguing tuning with lots of pretty stuff. I'll keep working at it . I'm working on "Invitation to Love" Here's the guitar it is on. Yes, it is a D 9.

Im sure somepeople love this tuning I just dont really see the point.
By the way Denny how you doing.

What I see is the possibility of letting the melody ring
while changing the notes on different strings.

I've posted this before. This was my one experiment with JB's C-diatonic tuning about 10 years ago. I sound a little tentative (and not always in tune) at times 'cause I was mostly improvising after I figured out the head. I remember I liked the cool scale cascades you could get playing across a straight bar position.

https://soundcloud.com/aev/funny-valentine-2

Thanks Kekoa for explaining that.

The first thing that occurs to me is that, if you use the tuning E F G A B C E, you only have an octave difference between your first and seventh strings, so, either your playing is all going to be treble, or you're going to have to tune it an octave or two lower and then your playing is going to be low, unless you spend all your time right up the fingerboard.

I switched to using what I call ionic on my 1st 5 strings. C, D, E, F, G cause my high A styled tuning kept popping the string. I actually love it as its add more colour and Jazz to my playing and less pentatonic now.

And as you mentioned its great for modes and soloing but my real meat and chord voicings are in my lower 7 strings.

CM13. Has a great guitaresque sound when solo playing.

Ray Montee wrote:Have any of you made on honest effort to explore and/or play stuff in JERRY BYRD's C Diatonic tuning?

Yes, and I attempted to make the next logical step - adding pedals (shudder!). That was 20 years ago. It evolved into an F Diatonic which I fooled with for about a decade.

Here's my original manifesto. I don't agree with some of the things I wrote back then. Live and learn. www.b0b.com/infoedu/c_scale.html

Alan Brookes wrote:The first time I read about "diatonic tuning" I took it to mean exactly that, and I built a lap steel with 14 strings tuned A B C D E F G A B C D E F G. I got nowhere with it.

I used to have a 6-string tuned to F G A C D E, which was interesting in that it's not even an octave from low to hi. I mostly used it to play this tune, though:
http://youtu.be/zUL7SgINlOI

I remember I really dug that tuning, though, even with the comma built in...

j

Jamie Mitchell wrote:I used to have a 6-string tuned to F G A C D E, which was interesting in that it's not even an octave from low to hi. I mostly used it to play this tune, though:
http://youtu.be/zUL7SgINlOI

I remember I really dug that tuning, though, even with the comma built in...

j

Way cool to hear a band do something like that live, Jamie. It not only pushes the boundaries of steel guitar, it expands the range of music that's acceptable for live public performance. Everything doesn't have to easily pigeonholed.

And the hula hoop dancer was fun to watch, too.

thanks bob!
that was a weird gig...
and yeah, she was great.