Tuning Beats??

Bill Miller · Post by **Bill Miller** » 15 Dec 2003 4:56 am

A couple of times just lately I've seen reference to "tuning with beats". At the risk of sounding like an ignoramus, what the heck is that? And how does it work in terms of tuning my guitar?[This message was edited by Bill Miller on 15 December 2003 at 04:57 AM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 15 Dec 2003 5:51 am

This subject has been discussed many times on this forum. The term "beat" is indeed a nebulous term.

In it simplest form a "beat" as used in musical instrument tuning is where two notes "clash" with each other in the human ear/brain perception.

It is best explained IMO, if you apply some numbers to it. If one has an A note tuned to exactly 440 cylces per second (called Hertz or HZ) and a C# note is tuned to exactly 550 HZ, the ear/brain will perceive NO "beats".

The reason for this is; 440 subtracted from 550 leaves 110, which is the second sub harmonic of 440. IE divide 440 in half twice. And any harmonic causes NO wobble or (beat) in the ears. This is defined as "harmonically pure" or "just".

However if either one of the notes deviates from this combination, a trained musical ear can hear a "wobble" or beat. The amount of beat(s) is directly proportional to the mathmatical separation of the HZ. Example:

A at 440 versus C# at 552; the ear will perceive exactly 2 beats. Which in essence is a very low frequency wobble of two cycles per second perceived in the brain.

So those of us who tune the beats out, are tuning each note to a given reference note so we hear NO wobble or beat(s) in our ears. This form of tuning is referred to as Just Intonation or JI. Most PSG players tune this way.

Interestingly, not all tune this way. Some PSG players tune to ET (Equal Temperament) where there are beats between ANY two notes. Pianos and keyed wind instruments are tuned this way. Although wind instrument players can "bend" notes using their lips to get around beats if they choose.

Ecer since our form of "western style" music was created, there has been a never ending debate as to which is the proper way to tune. Rarely will either side budge on their beliefs.

What is particularly noteworthy to add, is the beats are many times MORE noticable on a PSG than on most other instruments. This is caused by the specific level and frequency of overtones (harmonics) that a PSG produces; causing beats to be extemely objectionable to many players.

And example of this is the regular guitar which is almost always tuned ET does not sound nearly as "out of tune" as a PSG tuned ET. Same goes for a piano; as well as other instruments.

If you place a PSG tuned ET in a band where some (or all) are tuned to ET, one does not notice the beats nearly as bad as if the PSG was played alone. This is becauses the ear/brain averages out all the tiny variations of tuning between instruments and it is not as noticable. In some ears not noticable at all.

Incidently, musical ears such as concert violinists are quite ok with beats in many cases. Also, even PSG players such as Bill Stafford, Buddy Emmons and Weldon Myrick tune straight ET with apparently no problem in their ears.

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 15 December 2003 at 06:10 AM.][This message was edited by C Dixon on 15 December 2003 at 06:18 AM.]

Marco Schouten · Post by **Marco Schouten** » 15 Dec 2003 6:53 am

Carl is right, except that piano's are also tune to JI. My daughter has her piano tuned twice a year and the guy tunes the beats out.

------------------
Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud LLG; Guyatone 6 string lap steel; John Pearse bar; Emmons bar; Evans SE200 amp

Peter Timaratz · Post by **Peter Timaratz** » 15 Dec 2003 7:49 am

Carl, Thanks for the great explanation. Since psg is usually played with vibrato, wouldn't that cancel out any minor 'beating' when one is actually playing?

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 15 Dec 2003 8:08 am

Not to the trained ear Peter. Because relatively speaking, even with wide vibrato, the beats are still there at any instant of time. And this is easily picked up by the ear; IF the PSG guitar is played alone. However, IF two or more instruments are playing, (whether there is vibrato or not) the ear will "average" as stated in the original post.

Also, very respectfully, NO piano can be tuned JI between all notes. NOT even in the same key. The following is an example:

E
D#
C#
B
A
G#
F#
E

The above notes are all the notes in the Key of E. There is NO way to tune all of the above notes to JI. This is WHY strings 1 and 7 can never be tuned JI with the pedals up AND with the pedals down on our E9th necks; UNLESS, compensators are used to retune the F#'s in either the up or down position of the pedals.

This is but one of the reasons why I maintain that JI was and is wrong from the onset. Albeit I shall always tune JI because it sounds better to my ears.

carl
[This message was edited by C Dixon on 15 December 2003 at 08:13 AM.][This message was edited by C Dixon on 15 December 2003 at 08:19 AM.]

Bill Miller · Post by **Bill Miller** » 15 Dec 2003 11:16 am

Thanks for the detailed explanation Carl. I think I know now what "beats" refers to. ...sort of an oscillating sound between two notes played similtaneously. If I'm on the right track here the "beats" are slower the more out of 'JI' the two notes are. And as one note is altered and gradually approaches being in 'JI' with the other note, the beats or oscillations speed up and then disappear as the notes merge. Seems to me I've noticed something like that on my 6 string at least.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 15 Dec 2003 11:22 am

I think one reason beats are so noticeable on pedal steel is because we use the volume pedal to sustain or even swell the notes, whereas, regular guitars and pianos are dieing out after the initial attack. The overtones and beats die out the quickest. When we sustain or swell those overtones and beats it is much more noticeable. Organs also sustain and swell, and that is why their ET tuning warbles like crazy.

Marco might be confused about piano tuning because piano tuners actually count beats to get ET. If they hear too many, they tune them out until they get the right count.

Bill, the beats slow down and dissappear as one reaches JI, and get faster as you get farther from JI.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 15 December 2003 at 11:24 AM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 15 Dec 2003 11:30 am

Bill,

Very respectfully, it is just the opposite. IE,

The slower the oscillations (beats) the closer you are to JI. And as they slow down slower and slower, you will finally reach a point where they stop. This is zero beat or JI. If you continue, they will start up again (on the other side of zero beat) and the more out of JI you go the faster the beats will become.

The best way to visualize this; is to think of two race cars going around a track on elevated lanes. One is holding precisely 168 miles an hour. The other one is going 169 miles an hour. As each hour goes by, the second car gains one complete lap on the first car. However if the first car was traveling at exactly 167 miles per hour, it would lose one lap per hour.

In the first example they are exactly one cycle per hour out. In the second example they are exactly one cycle per hour out. BUT one is plus the other is minus. ONLY when BOTH cars are traveling at precisely 168 miles per hour are they at "zero beat" in essence.

Hope this helps clear it up and make the term less nebulous.

carl

Billy Wilson · Post by **Billy Wilson** » 15 Dec 2003 11:07 pm

C. Dixon says Buddy Emmons, Weldon Myrick and Bill Stafford tune ET, which I assume means the needle on the tuner is striaght up the middle on all strings and all pedals changes. My question is: Were they tuning this way before tuners were around and if so, how? Seems I read somewhere the BE tunes his E's to the tuner and then tunes the rest by ear. Is this how he gets JI or do they just tune everything on a tuner. I got thrown out of a recording studio once for doing that. I tune the beats OUT!

Bill Miller · Post by **Bill Miller** » 16 Dec 2003 4:39 am

I fooled with this last night for awhile and I can hear the beats to some degree, but it must take quite a bit of getting used to to really be able to use this method. For one thing it seems much more obvious in lower pitched strings than higher pitched ones...to me, so far. I wonder if Carl or someone else could give a step by step procedure for tuning with beats?[This message was edited by Bill Miller on 16 December 2003 at 04:40 AM.]

David Deratany · Post by **David Deratany** » 16 Dec 2003 5:06 am

Marco,

I think maybe once he has the 12 chromatic notes tuned - with beats - i.e. tempered, he then tunes the beats out on the octaves of each, so the entire keyboard is tempered.

And yes, as the two frequencies get closer, the beats slow down, disappearing altogether when they are in unison.
[This message was edited by David Deratany on 16 December 2003 at 05:08 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 16 Dec 2003 6:34 am

Bill, try listening for the beats using a good set of earphones. I find the beats stand out more with earphones, probably because they pick up the highs and overtones really well.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 16 Dec 2003 7:01 am

Bill,

Tuning with beats falls basically into three categories:

1. Using one's ear.

2. Using some form of test equipment such as a tuner.

3. Using the "matching" method on fretted instruments.

Because the number of beats are NOT whole numbers (rather whole plus fractions of beats

and because human ears do NOT all hear the same (more or less), this method is usually left to those who can do it inately and have much experience.

Using an instrument is easy. Simply tune everything to straight up 440 (ref).

Using the matching method uses the frets as a guide. Example:

1. Pick 4th string open.

2. Pick 5th string with bar at the 5th fret and tune so that both notes are in unison.

And so on using unison notes (at given frets; until you get all the strings in tune to each other. NOTE: this is more accurate on a regular guitar because the frets are real. On a steel guitar one must depend on their eyes determining "when" the bar is dead over the fret.

Also, there is no guarantee that the frets are located correctly. Which means using a tuner is probably the best way to go.

Finally, to the question about Buddy, Bill and Weldon. Both Weldon and Buddy tuned JI for over 30 yrs. Not sure if Bill ever tuned JI.

I do NOT believe "tuners" had anything to do with Buddy and Weldon changing. My opinion is this. Over years and years of frustrations trying to make JI work (which it has never in all cases); PLUS the culturing of their ears playing in multitudness applications; they simply realized that ET was correct and they were simply kidding theirselves trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

If either or both of them say this is not what happened, I respecfully stand corrected.

carl

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 16 Dec 2003 7:10 am

On My guitar, I tune my E's straight up, when I down the A&B pedals(it help's cabinet drop issues), Then I tune out the beats--works for me. The C6th neck I find easier yet to tune JI.

Carl, What a great explanation. I consider your comments to be recognised as "Fine Literature"!! HA!

Some very interesting comments on this thread by all!!

Marco Schouten · Post by **Marco Schouten** » 16 Dec 2003 12:36 pm

Probably Carl is right about the tuning of a piano, and not all the notes can be tuned to JI, but he plays certain intervals and than tunes the beats out. It's interesting to see:
he takes one note, silences the other strings, and tunes that note with an electronic tuner. Than he tunes out the beats of the other strings that are "hammered by the same key". Than he takes anothe note at a certain interval (don't no which) and tunes it by ear. The whole piano is tuned by ear, except the first note he does. Than all the time he plays another interval or chord and tunes it till it sounds right.
I'm not knowledgable enough to say it's all tuned to JI, but I believe it's partially for sure ? or am I mistaken?

------------------
Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud LLG; Guyatone 6 string lap steel; John Pearse bar; Emmons bar; Evans SE200 amp

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 16 Dec 2003 1:08 pm

he takes one note, silences the other strings, and tunes that note with an electronic tuner. Than he tunes out the beats of the other strings that are "hammered by the same key".

Thats because those strings are unisons.

Than he takes another note at a certain interval (don't no which) and tunes it by ear. The whole piano is tuned by ear

He's listening for a specific number of beats per second ... depending on where he is on the piano and the interval he's tuning up.

My buddy back in W. Palm Beach was a piano tuner ... it is fascinating to watch. I wish I had 1/100th of his ear.

Here is a good article that kinda gives you an ideaa what he's doin' .... Piano Tuning...

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www.horseshoemagnets.com

Bill Miller · Post by **Bill Miller** » 16 Dec 2003 2:57 pm

Thanks Carl for the considerable lengths you've gone to explaining all this to a rookie. I have a better understanding of it now and it's something I will be toying with and incorporating to one degree or another as I get more used to hearing it.

David Deratany · Post by **David Deratany** » 16 Dec 2003 7:53 pm

A good way to hear beats is to tune playing through a fuzz tone. Those devices accentuate the beats beyond belief, at least the ones I've used.

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 16 Dec 2003 10:19 pm

I can only add a few tricks to tuning by beats.
1) Bypass efx like reverb, delay, chorus,flangers, etc. (Chorus adds beats!)
2) If using two speaker cabinets, turn one off.
3) Use headphones if the environment is too noisy.

If you have ever been in a twin engine propeller airplane, you can really hear the beats. HMMMM, HMMMM, HMMMM when the two engines are not perfectly synchronized.

Hope this adds something

Ron

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 17 Dec 2003 12:22 am

If you're using a tuner with a VU-Meter, try this on the E9-Neck:
1. F#-440, G-440, G#-436
2. D#-436, C#-436, E-440
3. G#-436, A-440
4. E-440, F-432, F#-436, Eb-436
5. B-440, C#-436, Bb-436
6. G#-436, A-440, G-440, F#-440
7. F#-438
8. E-440, F-432, F#-436, Eb-436
9. D-440, C#-436
10. B-440, C#-436, Bb-436
– – – – – – – – – – – –
C6-Neck:
1. D-442, D#-445, C-442
2. E-438, F-442, D-442
3. C-442, D-442, B-438, C#-434
4. A-438, Bb-445, B-438
5. G-442, G#-434, F#-434
6. E-438, F-442, Eb-445
7. C-442, C#-434
8, A-438, Bb-445, B-438
9. F-442, F#-434, E-438
10 C-442, D-438, A-438
– – – – – – – – – – – –
I just tune my E-4th on the E9 and the C-3rd on the C6 Neck and then tune by ear the rest of the way, but; I made up these charts back when I was using the tuner exclusively, until I decided it was too time consuming! BTW: If your C6 has a G on the 1st., just follow the readings for string #5, depending on whether you raise or lower w/a pedal change. I just included the changes that I have on all the strings in my charts. I hope this helps someone! “BJ”
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“Big John” Bechtel
http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels
[This message was edited by John Bechtel on 17 December 2003 at 10:47 AM.]

Ken Williams · Post by **Ken Williams** » 17 Dec 2003 8:06 am

Rick, that's the way I tune certain notes on the steel. For example, to tune the high G# string, I play the 3rd and 5th strings together and listen for beat rate. I know in my head the rate that would probably work best for me. I've mentioned this to a few folks before, and have gotten a few strange looks. One advantage of this is that you can tune without being distracted too much by loud noises, DJs , bar fights, etc. If I checked the G# strings, or for that matter several other strings and pulls, on a tuner they would still be slightly flat of "straight up". But, over the years I've tried to get them as close as I can tolerate. I used to try to tune the beats out, but never could get it to sound quite right when playing with a band. When going through this tuning routine, certain strings I chime and some I just listen for beats. It depends on the strength of the waver.

Ken
http://home.ipa.net/~kenwill [This message was edited by Ken Williams on 17 December 2003 at 08:11 AM.]

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 17 Dec 2003 9:53 am

Gentlemen; Thanks so much for the explanation of JI vs ET. I've wondered for some time what the heck it was. Now I'm gonna print this thread for my files. Thanks again.

Billy Wilson · Post by **Billy Wilson** » 19 Dec 2003 3:29 pm

I've even used a snare drum (with snares turned on) to accentuate the beats. You gotta play kind of loud to make it work though