The Steel Guitar Forum

I am new to playing steel. I have just traded some musical equipment for an MSA S-10.
Some knowledgable friends have said that ,practically, any steel available out there is going to be better than the MSA.
Is this true did MSA really make a bad steel.
I have a steel instruction book with a lot of pictures of pros playing their steels. Not a one of the pros are playing MSA.

Curly Chalker, one of the greatest ever, played an MSA, which is a very high endorsement.

Cliff- Don't panic.You didn't say which MSA you have, I assume a "Sidekick" possibly a "Red Baron".Anyway even though they may be limited, It's like learning to drive a car.ie where is the Brake,Steering Wheel,Turn signals etc.Forget the Sun Roof and Cell phone. YOU CAN LEARN BASICS ON ANYTHING such as String combinations,Which pedal does what etc.Learn how to hold the bar, Where is C and G chord and PRACTICE. For now forget 14Knees and 27 pedals. Ed Naylor Steel Guitar Works

Cliff, you need to find some new friends if you are going to take advise from your friends. They know not what they are talking about. When you are a few years further in your playing you can make the decision of which brand you prefer but there is certainly nothing wrong with any MSA I have ever seen. I prefer Emmons guitars to any other brand now but I would have loved to have had an MSA from the time the first one was built until I got my first Emmons in 1981. Some of the greatest players ever played MSA. In fact, being the lover of nice instruments that I am, I would love to have a nice SS or Millenium today.
Jerry<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jerry Roller on 16 November 2003 at 02:19 PM.]</p></FONT>

Play several other brands of steel made during the same period and I think you'll find your so-called knowledgeable friends did you a disservice.

Ed Naylor done told you right. I really did not care for the sound and tone of my new steel until this afternoon my new mentor (Instuctor) (Who has played a Mullen 12U for the past few years sat down at it) Showed me real quick that the only thing wrong with the sucky sound was the impatient old man trying to learn it.
As he told me, work on your scales, learn chord placement and WORK WORK WORK on blocking.
I will guarantee you, the big guns took a lot of ,If I may quote Leon, "Time in the wood shed".
I have spent every available moment pouring over books by Scott and Winnie. Takes time. Don't matter if you have a $12,000 emmons, If you can't make it sound good, it sure won't.
Oh yes you didn't mention, what type of steel do your friends have.
By the way, if you follow this forum at all, the first three guys that replied to your post are three of "Big Guns.
Me, I am still in the diaper stage of this thing. Loving every excruciating moment of it.

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T.C.
Emmons S-10
Zumsteel S-10<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Tom Callahan on 16 November 2003 at 03:00 PM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Tom Callahan on 16 November 2003 at 03:02 PM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Tom Callahan on 16 November 2003 at 03:05 PM.]</p></FONT>

Hey Cliff, I was just on your end in that fabulous city last week! At any rate, MSA was a very well built guitar. The older models are very heavy. This is the only downside. But, many older guitars of the same time frame were very heavy. I have played many of the top name brands out there, and at this point, I have found the MSA Classic SS that I have is the best playing and sounding guitar for me. If you are comfortable playing on the guitar, disregard what your friends say. You will see many guitars that feature many pedals and knee levers. 3 pedals and 2 knee levers will suffice to play 90% or more of the music available. By the way, Bud Carter was one of the talented people who built MSA guitars. He now builds Carter guitars along with John Fabian. Certainly nothing to be ashamed of!
Dave

By the way Cliff, read the post by Reece Anderson today. He was also a builder of the MSA, thus the "A".
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MSA Classic D-10 8/5, Dekley S-12 5/4, Profex II, Nashville 400

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by David Higginbotham on 16 November 2003 at 03:56 PM.]</p></FONT>

Cliff, here's a link to a thread that I posted a few months back...with some clips played on <u>my</u> old MSA...
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/005727.html

Cliff, as for my opinion, MSA's are great. I owned and played one for 2 or 3 years back in the late 1970's and loved it. Mine was a single neck 5 pedals 4 knees. What is yours??? I can remember looking at the MSA catalog they put out in the 70's, and dreaming over the white double 10 with 8 pedals and I think 4 or 5 knees. I must have worn the catalog out just looking at the picture. I never did get that MSA, but I sure spent a lot of time looking at that old MSA catalog. Duane Becker

Cliff,
I'd sure like to know how many folks on this forum had and MSA at one time or another ...
I'll bet it's a good many people that did !
It would be interesting to see a show of hands on this subject !!....Sincerely, Jim

MSA Steels sound pretty darn good to me. And if they're adjusted right, they don't play half bad either. Nick

John,
Thanks for the endorsement of Mr. Chalker. I will look him up.
Do any of the known pros these days still play MSA?
My friends were adament that perhaps I made a bad decision.

Cliff,
I'd sure like to know how many folks on this forum had and MSA at one time or another ...
I'll bet it's a good many people that did !
It would be interesting to see a show of hands on this subject !!....Sincerely, Jim

Hi James,
I guess the operative word is "had". I am led to believe that not many play the older MSAs anymore. Wooden knecks, no sustain, adjustment problems and that almost any reputable steel is better than the MSA.
I am nervous I bought an Albatros.

Cliff,
I'd sure like to know how many folks on this forum had an MSA at one time or another ...
I'll bet it's a good many people that did !
It would be interesting to see a show of hands on this subject !!....Sincerely, Jim

Hi James,
I guess the operative word is "had". I am led to believe that not many play the older MSAs anymore. Wooden knecks, no sustain, adjustment problems and that almost any reputable steel is better than the MSA.
I am nervous I bought an Albatros.

Here's a good start for a list of current and former MSA players: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum4/HTML/005245.html

Cliff,
I'd say there are quite a few folks that STILL have MSA steels !!...Jim

Cliff, you haven't said if your MSA is a "Sidekick" or "Red Baron" - if so, it is an instrument that was built in order to provide an affordable entry-level instrument for beginners. I started with a Sidekick, and it served its purpose well. I didn't gig on that guitar, but the guy I sold it to did, and succesfully so. But MSA made professional level instruments too - lots of them, and most people think they still represent a good buy for someone starting out. And a lot of them are still being played professionally. Leonard Zinn, Susan Alcorn, Mike Perlowin - hey, if an istrument is good enough for those folks you ought not to let anyone make you feel bad for playing one. But whatever model the instrument is, unless you paid way too much for it, there is no danger of it being an "Albatross". If you decide to change instruments some day you will have no trouble selling it. So play it and enjoy it. Good luck.

Oh dear Lord, another lawsuit in the making!

(Ha, Ha!)

Bks

I've got one of those old wooden neck MSAs and it has plenty of sustain. In addition, I played it five nights a week for a year and never had to retune the pedals. What adjustment problem?

MSA was one of the early players with a stable, well designed mechanism. It hardly changed at all in the twenty or so years of the company's life. Some of the others changed mechanisms seemingly almost every year or two, trying to get it right.

Cliff, I play steel for Ray Price and I play an MSA Millennium. I love it so much that I went to work for the company building them. If you ever have a question about your MSA contact us at the link below. You will find phone information on the web site.

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Johnny Cox (Team Millennium)
<A HREF="http://www.johnnyandjoancox.com" TARGET=_blank>
www.johnnyandjoancox.com
</A>
<A HREF="http://http:/www.msapedalsteels.com" TARGET=_blank>
www.msapedalsteels.com
</A>

And of course Maurice Anderson (president of both the old and new MSA companies)himself played an older MSA, before the new company was born, and the Millennium designed and built.

Like Curly Chalker, Reece is a legendary, monster jazz player who specializes in chords. Get a recording by him if you want to hear the unique qualities of the old MSA maximized to the fullest.

Even though some of the Nashville and other pro players of the time used the old MSA off and on when it was built, it's generally conceded that it isn't the best guitar to use for a current commercial Nashville sound.

The question is, is that the only sound anybody should be interested in?

I have a lacquer finish 1976 MSA Classic S-10, and it is an attractive guitar that is built like a tank, stays in tune, and is easy to adjust. I can't imagine anybody dissing the mechanics of the older non-student MSA's. Most people think they were unsurpassed in their day, and still are at least as durable as anything out there.

Especially considering what I paid for the MSA, I can't imagine having had a better first steel. If you don't like the sound, putting another pickup in it will often help tremendously.

I recently bought an Emmons LeGrande, which is one of the guitars currently in vogue. Admittedly, for what I hear in my head, and what I'm required to do in the bands I've played with, the Emmons sound is better than the old MSA.

But you know what? Now that I have a guitar that can handle that sound, I can more easily get out the MSA and just let it be itself. It's a warm, unique and personal sound.

Of course the Jerry Wallace True Tone pickup also deserves a certain amount of credit. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 16 November 2003 at 09:13 PM.]</p></FONT>

No matter what brand you play, there is always someone who comes along and says it's not as good as some other brand. The guitar a player chooses is his/her own choice for a variety of very personal reasons- price, tone, playability, weight, maintainability, or whatever.

You don't mention if your MSA is a student model or pro model. Student models of most any brand are generally regarded as less desirable by the vast majority of players, and there are valid reasons for that. But student models fill a big need, and there's no shame whatsoever in owning one. If YOU don't have any major issues with the guitar you have (whether it's a pro model MSA or student model), learn all you can on it, and treat it well...it will stick with you like a good friend for many years. Unless the guitar is in really bad shape, won't stay in tune, etc, your big worry now is learning how to play, not the raging debate on which brand is "best". Focus on the music! If you find a guitar you like better as you progress, go for it. But remember...no matter what it is, somebody will probably tell you it sucks, too.

Cliff, not meaning to put down your friends, but you're getting a lot of good and accurate advice here from some people who reeallly know what they're talking about, giants of pedal steel....(I'd be asking myself, how does your friends' pedal-steel knowledge-credentials measure up to these guys? I'm sure they have good intentions, but...) I have to tell you there are not many who know pedal steel guitar better than some of the guys here at the Forum, and some of them ARE pedal steel guitar.

True, there has been some debate last few years about the old MSA's tone, because it doesn't sound like an Emmons or Sho-Bud. That's not to say the others sound better, but they sound different than old MSA's and the Emmons and Sho-Bud (and others) sound has become more popular, not for the fault of the MSA's as much as Emmons and Sho-bud steels have been around a long time too and players like Lloyd Green and Buddy Emmons have played a tremendous amount of recording sessions on their Sho-Bud and Emmons steels, they and their steels have been very visible figures in the music scene for many years. Curly Chalker didn't much care for recording, so he and his MSA sound just wasn't out there as much as the Emmons and Sho-Bud sound.

When something becomes established and popular (and successful $$$-wise) then people tend to think that's what's right and the other's wrong. Chalker liked a mellower tone than the popular Sho-Bud or Emmons' tone as it is usually recorded. Some steel players and fans of pedal steel have therefore decided that old MSA's sound "muddy", since that's how they felt he sounded compared to many other popular players who preferred brighter tone. Chalker's sound wasn't "muddy" but it definitely wasn't crystal-sparkling bright. He was really into jazz and you know most jazz guys like that bigger, fatter sound. I got to know Chalker as a good friend in the '80's when I lived in Las Vegas and he even let me borrow his MSA, til I insisted he take it back, it scared me to death just being responsible for it. I spent a lot of hours listening to him play live and played gigs with him (me on regular guitar) and believe me his tone didn't suck and he wouldn't play a guitar that did. His tone was big, full, sweet and clear, even if it wasn't "sparkling".

Actually, any great steel player such as those I've named, would still be great on any kind of steel. They play what they feel best suits them and comes closest to the sound they hear in their head. We'd all think they were great on an ironing board with strings.

The old MSA has fallen out of the limelight more because they quit making them over 20 years ago and one of the main players was Curly Chalker as mentioned earlier, and Curly sorta left the Nashville spotlights after Hee-Haw. Meanwhile the other players continued with their favorites, new players bought new steels (MSA gone now) and so you haven't seen a lot of big-stars' steel players playing old MSA's lately. You will find them being played all over the country in working bands and smaller studios and I've not heard anyone complaining about them.

I've had a Fender 1000, several Sho-Buds, a ZB Custom and two MSA's, never had an Emmons but would like to one of these days, more just because I've never had one than any other reason. Despite all the hoopla and hype nowdays over Sho-Buds, ZBs, Emmons, etc. (and all the newer brands) I can tell you for sure that they can all sound equally crappy if the player isn't up to getting the tone out of the instrument. That comes with time and a lot of practice and patience. And some Sho-Buds (brace yourselves) weren't that great! I had one that's sound would make your hair stand up, it's sound was so beautiful. Another was OK. Another was dead-awful.

I don't care if someone gets the best new pedal steel, amp and all the gear on the planet, he won't sound any better than on your MSA until he learns how to play. I hear guys all the time playing in bands with the best equipment and getting awful tones, and I've heard some guys with junk sounding fantastic. You gotta have it "in you" (like the commercial says) and THEN with a great instrument will sound even that much better.

If you're convinced you're going to stay with pedal steel and not give up then by all means if you can afford it run out and buy a new steel the best you can get. Otherwise, if your steel works OK, stays in tune well enough and you're not sure you want to spend more money on this steel thing yet, keep working with what you got until you know you need something better.

As far as "MSA's suck, don't stay in tune, etc."... Baloney! My '79 MSA Classic D-10 sounded great, stayed in tune great, sustained great. If I hadn't been an idiot and sold it to a friend I'd still play it. I have an early '70s Sho-Bud S-10 and a '74 MSA D-12, one of the ones with all wooden necks. That's the one I play now. It seems to not have as much sustain as my '79 did but it has plenty enough and still sounds great, and stays in tune amazingly. It has bounced around in a trailer behind our band RV for 3 summers now and usually the only string I have to re-tune when I take it out is my 6th string G# because the keyhead bumps the inside of the case. Once while doing a showcase where every band has 20 minutes to play and about 10 minutes to set up your instruments I had to throw it onstage and play without even time to check my tuning (couldn't hear it offstage and unplugged while the other band played) and guess what, it was probably not PERFECT but was very very close and sounded fine.

The band would attest to the fact that this old MSA stays in great tune, the pedals and knee-levers almost never go out of tune and the tone is great. If I play it in the sun at 100 degrees out and next gig it's under an airconditioner, sure it's gonna be off. That's normal for anything. I like it's sound best through my old Fender tube amp, but it sounds good in my solid-state stuff too. In their time they were really very renown for having the smoothest, most accurate mechanics of the time and are still mechanically very good. I haven't even broken a string on the old '74 in months, not even the 3rd! By the way, it can get as bright and trebley as I'd ever want it.

Sure if I could afford it I'd run out and buy a new MSA Millenium or Emmons or Zum, a Bigsby, or heck, why not one of everything if a guy can afford it or is one of the big guys in the studios and needs DIFFERENT tones than the old MSA has. I'll be the first one to admit I'm just a working musician, not a studio heavyweight like some of these guys. I've doubled regular guitar and pedal steel for about 33 years now, played with some big stars in the past but not into the road scene anymore, but I still do play for a living and I do just fine on my '74 MSA, so do thousands of others, and they do NOT suck.

<center> </center> <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2003 at 12:30 AM.]</p></FONT>

Well Hoss, What kind of MSA do you have. Point blank question. Might help clear up things.

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T.C.
Emmons S-10
Zumsteel S-10

I have 2 MSA U-12s. One maple/lacquer body and one laminate/mica body. They are different, but both excellent. I am very happy with both and would not sell either.

The MSA tone is mellower than that of an Emmons, just as the tone of a hollow body jazz guitar is different from a telecaster. And just as you'll never get that jazz guitar to sound like a tle, you'll never get an MSA to sound like an Emmons. It's a different animal.

Having said that, I must add that a lot of people, including me, don't care for MSA pickups, and you might consider changing for a George L or a Bill Lawrence. I have a George L 5 position in the maple guitar and a Bill Lawrence 712 in the mica one.

The secret to making an MSA sound good (after you've swapped pickups) is to set your amp in such a way as to bring our it's natural tone, and not try to make it sound like something it's not. If you do that, you'll find your guitar has a lovely mellow tone. It might not be the tone you had in mind if you're looking for the Emmons sound, but it certainly doesn't suck.