Lkv-e9

Rusty Walker · Post by **Rusty Walker** » 27 Jul 2003 8:47 am

I've never had a LKV on my E9.I'm going to put one on So my question is what is the most popular change for it.Franklin& Tommy White are doing different things.bOb,I see that you are raising the E to F#,which is something I wanted to try-mainly because I've always felt that P3 was somehow redundant.Sure would appreciate some feedback

Dan Farrell · Post by **Dan Farrell** » 27 Jul 2003 9:18 am

Rusty-- I have my LKV set to lower the G#'s to G. That gives you another way to get the minor chord from the major without moving the bar.

Dan Farrell
Anaheim CA
'97 Carter D-10
Nashville 1000

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 27 Jul 2003 9:31 am

I have Buddy's' 5 and 10 B's to Bb this gives a minor sounding thing on A B pedals down. I use it a lot with the 5th string.
And it has a nice passing chord thing with BC pedals too, on 5 and 10.
Just my 2¢.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 27 Jul 2003 9:58 am

By far, the most common use of LKV is the B to A# lower. I wouldn't recommend anything else.

My own E to F# raise is a folly that I'm too old to change. I don't recommend it to anyone.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 27 Jul 2003 10:05 am

raising the E to F#,which is something I wanted to try-mainly because I've always felt that P3 was somehow redundant

If by redundant, you mean that by raising E to F# on a knee lever, and combining it with pedal A raising B to C# that you don't need pedal C(3) because you get the same notes, you are wrong. Pedal C is a floor pedal, and therefore has very quick response, allowing a wide range of classic licks. It will be hard to accomplish these licks using a vertical knee that has to be timed to move quickly in combination with pedals A and B. With that being said, if you have little interest in the classic pedal C sounds, then certainly you can dump the C pedal. But a big part of the famous Nashville E9 pedal steel sound that is rooted in the late 60's and 70's is pedal C.

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Jeff's Jazz

Post by **Joey Ace** » 27 Jul 2003 10:09 am

Hi Rusty!

FWIW, I have my "PF Pedal" on LKV.
(Lowers 5,6,10 a whole tone)

I know of no one else that does this, but I like it. It seems like a more natural move.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 27 Jul 2003 12:01 pm

Gotta go along with b0bby and Jeff on this one. LKV is fast becoming a standard on E9th pedal steel guitars. For years 4 knee levers was standard. But many are opting to have a LKV. And by far, most lower the B's to Bb with it.

Going along with Jeff, it is extremely difficult (if not impossible) to do with a knee lever what B and C floor pedals can do. Best to leave them as is. Put the B to Bb change on that lever and you will probably like it once you get used to it.

Like anything else, there IS a learning curve. Particularly with an "UP" knee lever.

May Jesus bless you in your quests,

carl

Rusty Walker · Post by **Rusty Walker** » 27 Jul 2003 1:04 pm

Thanks for replies.I lower B's to Bb on RKR.But I have an S12 That I built for practice & experimental purposes.Jeff, your point is well taken.To further that,bOb,were you ever able to get your knee speed up to the point where you could do do what your foot could do? That was my whole thought process.But you don't seem to be too thrilled with it,so I'm assuming it didn't come off.If thats the case then I'd like to do something with a LKV that would be more useful.Trouble is,I lean two ways with E9.I play country,but at the same time I've found that there is a whole other world within that tuning.Especially with ext. E9.bOb,you know what I'm talkin'about.My main guitar is a D12 that I had Shot build in about 1964-before he had castings that size.But with the age of body weakness approaching,just taking the S12 to gigs is a whole lot easier.So I've spent a whole lot more practice time with E9.I still only have 3&4,but want to expand.

Rusty Walker · Post by **Rusty Walker** » 27 Jul 2003 1:15 pm

As a P.S. to the above post,has any one else tried the P.F. change on a LKV? I"M considering adding that change on another floor pedal,in hopes that it is more than one lick.Paul,have you found a lot of use for it in cojuntion with other changes?

mickd · Post by **mickd** » 27 Jul 2003 1:24 pm

I have 1 & 7 F#->G on LKV, which is the Sierra U12 standard setup. It gives you the dominant 7th with A&B.
I have B lower on RKL. I use this quite a lot without A&B (while still in 'E9th mode') so I think I would find this awkward on LKV.

Post by **Joey Ace** » 27 Jul 2003 2:17 pm

As a PS to my post,

A lick where I use the PF is from AB pedals down, to Open, than a Whole Step Down, and back to Open. (with strings 4, 5, 6).

A song that come to mind is Dwight's "What Do You Know About Love", as a tag at the end of the solos.

It's so easy to play that with this setup - foot lifts off pedals, continues up to LKV, then back down.

Tony Dingus · Post by **Tony Dingus** » 27 Jul 2003 3:07 pm

Rusty, I lower the 5th & 6th on the LKV and lower the 10th on the C pedal along with the
4th & 5th raise.

Tony

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 27 Jul 2003 4:14 pm

I have the B to Bb drops on my vertical lever. However, I am going to try something different. I am going to put the Franklin change on my vertical like Joey, but I'm also going to put a 1/2 stop on the lever so I can still get the B to Bb change. Wish me luck!
Erv

Randy Pettit · Post by **Randy Pettit** » 28 Jul 2003 6:42 am

Rusty:
I play an S-12 Universal, and lower the 6th from G# to F#, and raise the 1st (actually my 3rd string) from F# to G# on my LKV - sort of a "half-Franklin" change. And I'll echo Joey's comments about the ease of that change with AB pedals. It is also a "double duty" lever since I don't lower the 6th and raise the 1st in the same string grips.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 28 Jul 2003 10:16 am

To further that,bOb,were you ever able to get your knee speed up to the point where you could do do what your foot could do?

No. If you listen to my song "Round the Horn" you'll hear me pumping the C pedal. I think it's absolutely necessary for that Bakersfield sound. I've taken it off recently because I'm not playing that kind of music these days, and the undercarriage is simpler with only one E to F# change.

But I don't recommend that anyone follow my lead. It's pretty hard to hit a pedal and LKV together in a way that approximates the C pedal, and the C pedal is a staple of the E9th sound. I especially like the C pedal on push-pull guitars, becase you can use it with your 8th string lowered and the 4th string lower is ignored. It gives you a great sounding high 5th on the B9th chord.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 28 July 2003 at 11:16 AM.]

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 28 Jul 2003 10:21 am

On my current U-12 (BMI) I have the B's to Bb on the LKV but on my old ShoBud S-12 I had the E to F# 4th string raise on it and although I've had this guitar for over 10 or ll years I still miss that E to F# change. I had the B's to Bb on my LKL on the 'bud. I wish I could figure out how to get a double stop on my E's to F (RKL) lever to I could get a F/F# change on that. I think that would be really cool 'cause I used to like adding the E to F# when I had the A&B pedals down for some nice things.

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Whip Lashaway · Post by **Whip Lashaway** » 28 Jul 2003 12:58 pm

Ditto to what mickd said. I also use the Sierra setup with B-A# on RKL and have F#-G on my LKV. I tried putting the B-A# on LKV once and absolutly hated it. Took it off after just a couple of days. I will say though, I had the F#-G on LKV almost since I started playing 20 years ago so that may have had something to do with it. Also, I use the bageesers out of the B-A# and find it much more user friendly on the RKL. Plus having a locking E-D# gives me dual use which I have to have for the B6th.
Whip

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Whip Lashaway
Sierra E9/B6 12 string
Sierra E9/B6 14 string
78' Emmons D10 P/P

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 28 Jul 2003 5:40 pm

On a 12 string universal, you may only want the 5th string B to A# and not the 9th string. There will be a conflict with your Boo Wha pedal when using the B to A# on the 9th string together.

John Russell · Post by **John Russell** » 28 Jul 2003 6:29 pm

What's the old saying--different strokes for different folks?

Regarding the LKV, mine raises the middle F# to G for that change mikd referred to giving a dominant 7 chord with A and B pedals engaged. That's a change I couldn't be without and it's completely natural in that position with your feet already mashing down on A and B, just push a little harder and you engage LKV. I also raise #1 to G for another voicing of the dom 7.

I lower the Bs to Bbs via the RKR. A pretty nice change tho I don't use it all that much. Gives you an augmented chord with the A pedal.

I dispensed with the C pedal about the first week I took up pedal steel and haven't found a reason to add it back. It just seemed to me that the necessity of adding the E to F# change with pedals A and B engaged trumped any
reason not to have it. Of course I didn't have a C6 neck and needed that additional 6th voicing. (I still don't have the C6 neck as I play a S12U guitar.) I raise E to F# on string 4--it's located on my RKL. It
also adds a cool 9th tone to the open chord. Of course it's the same note as the first string which I do have and use plenty for passing tones, plus it makes a nice unison sound when you pedal string 4 up to the same tone as string 1. Works real nice at the first major chord inversion of up 3 from root where you have string 4 already raised to F--another sus 4 voicing that also unisons
string 1.

I can't see how I'm handicapped not having this change on the floor. Not only can you get the same change as the C pedal, you can add the A pedal raise for a dom 7 add 6 chord (A+B pedals down).

I just recently have been exploiting the E to D (string

change my with pedal 6 out of root position (E9 mode). This change creates the 4 chord+dom. 7 when in the B6 orientation (both Es lowered) but in the E9 zone (root pos.), its a kinda cool dom7. Very twangy and great for blues licks.

I almost forgot--with E to F# on RKL, I can get the "Moonglow" lick quite easily playing that triad on strings 3-4-5, moving the bar down one, then two frets while keeping string 4 at the same pitch via the two raises for E
(the raise to F and the raise to F#.)

Course this is just me. Some would say my setup is holding me back and I just didn't try hard enough to work with the "standard" setup. Well, SOMEday I might get a D-10 guitar just to see what all the excitement is about. After
I retire and have the time to re-learn.

John Russell · Post by **John Russell** » 28 Jul 2003 6:53 pm

Sorry to hog bandwith here but while I've got your attention, I'd like to make one more point.

I was tinkering around with all the changes I mentioned above to be sure I had it right and it struck me again how brilliant the E9 tuning is in concept and practicality! Thanks Buddy E. and anyone else involved in that little bit of clear thinking! Putting that F# right in the middle was like adding black keys to the piano. --JR

Rusty Walker · Post by **Rusty Walker** » 30 Jul 2003 3:10 am

You guys have given me a ton of stuff to tinker with & I appreciate it.Guess I'll keep the P3 as is.Joey,don't you find lowering 3 strings with the V requires a lot of pressure and travel? Plus you have to get your toe onto the floor to make the change dont you?

Post by **Joey Ace** » 3 Nov 2003 7:36 am

Sorry for the delay, Rusty. I just saw your question.

No I don't need my toe on the floor, I just raise my entire foot off the floor.

It's not too much pressure and works well. Maybe because it's a newer guitar (a 99 Carter).

D Schubert · Post by **D Schubert** » 3 Nov 2003 12:40 pm

I recently gave up my knee lever that raised both F#'s to G, in favor of a sixth string lower and a first string raise. I like this new setup better, but I miss my old G lever, too. I have been thinking about getting this change back with a LKV to use with A and B pedals down. Then I re-read this thread today, and see that it's already been done. Any drawbacks to this? [This message was edited by D Schubert on 03 November 2003 at 12:50 PM.]

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 3 Nov 2003 2:56 pm

Joey

I had that on my Zum (5,6,10 on LKV), too.

I asked Jeff Peterson to put the same thing on my LeGrande last week, but he persuaded me to split the change - lower the 6th on the LKV (like normal) and extend the range of my Bs to Bb (RKL) so that I can go the whole step down, and use the LKV and RKL together.

I was afraid that I wouldn't get sufficient 'feel' on the half-step (I use that ALL the time), but he told me not to worry - he set the guitar up perfectly, and I'm already completely comfortable with 'half-pedalling' that RKL. It's entirely due to Jeff's expert balancing of the C6/E9 pulls on that lever - I wouldn't have believed it could feel so easy!

My Emmons is now the perfect steel guitar

!

RR

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 3 Nov 2003 4:00 pm

Mr. Hayes... That is a great idea to half stop the E to F to F# on one lever. I tried that on a Super Pro I used to have. It didn't work out very well. A lot of stuff done with the E to F lever is done with fast activation of the lever. I found I could never get the F exact when hitting the lever fast. I think it would require a pretty heavy half stop at the F which would cause smoothness problems when raising to F#. I presently have both my E's to F# on LKV. I also have P3. I'm thinking of putting the F#'s to G back on there though. I used this change for many, many years and am finding that I miss it a lot. I do not have the B's to A# lever. No one has really provided me a good explaination of what the lever is used for. Other than to minor the AB combo (I just let off my AB pedals at the same time lowering my E's to D# and slide up one fret to get the exact same minor inversion. I can do it pretty much without much notice of the bar slide) and the Together Again lick that Brumley used.