| Author |
Topic: Lap steel Guitar Intonation |
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 7 Apr 2015 11:05 pm |
|
I found this YouTube video interesting. Is it the setup (the style bridge used or poor built neck) or truth or misleading or simply bad technique???
Let's get the ball rolling by looking at the video about lap steel intonation.
http://youtu.be/W3t_4lzj-ao
You decide and let's hear your feedback.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 8 Apr 2015 5:30 am
|
|
Here's a quote I found with regards to this issue on a lap steel.
Default Re: Lap steel players......intonation question.
Intonation is a string length correction to compensate for string mass and fretting pressure. On an instrument played entirely with a bar or slide, there is nothing for which to correct.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
James Hartman
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
|
Posted 8 Apr 2015 6:11 am
|
|
Consider all the great lap steel recordings of the past on instruments with non-adjustable bridges. Would Jerry Byrd have played more in tune with compensated bridge saddles?
I think Mr. Joedoc is sending folks on a Snark hunt, with that video. The explanation of intonation problems he offers doesn't really explain anything. All he does is demonstrate you can put the intonation way out by moving one bridge saddle out of line.
Intonation issues on a steel (assuming the instrument does not have a seriously flawed set up - grossly unequal string height, or a damaged nut or bridge saddle) are primarily a matter of playing technique. I seriously question whether altering individual string length at the bridge on a steel is helpful; might well make things worse. |
|
|
|
Tom Pettingill
From:
California, USA (deceased)
|
Posted 8 Apr 2015 8:16 am
|
|
| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
| ... Intonation is a string length correction to compensate for string mass and fretting pressure. ... |
In the context of steel guitar, its the mass part that can affect us.
I mentioned it in a recent topic, but just to restate, I've found that string sets with a large variation from smallest to largest, like open E or D for example, could benefit from a little compensation, but in practice it really makes no difference. If you think about it, we are playing by ear and naturally adjust bar position and compensate on the fly.
_________________
Some misc pics of my hand crafted steels
Follow me on Facebook here |
|
|
|
Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
|
|
|
|
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
|
Posted 8 Apr 2015 8:56 am
|
|
What is an acceptable level of "disintonation"? I think that one has to allow tolerance for a slightly off intonation from lap steel players, especially in improvisation. I know perfection is something I'll never achieve, and it's not really a top priority to me. Is that sacrilege?
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
|
|
|
Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
|
Posted 8 Apr 2015 9:14 am
|
|
Hey, Mike! That ought to be my mantra ...
| Quote: |
| one has to allow tolerance for a slightly off intonation from lap steel players |
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
|
|
|
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
|
Posted 8 Apr 2015 9:31 am
|
|
| Andy Volk wrote: |
Hey, Mike! That ought to be my mantra ...
| Quote: |
| one has to allow tolerance for a slightly off intonation from lap steel players |
|
It's a really tough one, because there is the finest line between acceptable and cringe-worthy. I straddle it often.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
|
|
|
Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
|
Posted 8 Apr 2015 10:31 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| one has to allow tolerance for a slightly off intonation from lap steel players |
That's why that wiggly, wobbly vibrato was invented!
Sometimes when I'm learning a song I will play along with the mp3, section by section. I listen closely to the player and try to clone what he's doing, one section at a time. When I study a recording like this I'm always surprised to hear "pitchy" licks that I never noticed before. I think beautiful vibrato and great tone go a long way to mask slight intonation screw ups. Even the greatest steel players are not perfect all the time, but their overall sound, the tone, vibrato, volume pedal technique, etc. combine to create their unique sound, and that's what we hear and appreciate.
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
|
|
|
Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
|
Posted 8 Apr 2015 10:40 am
|
|
ok - i watched the video. IMO, i dont think intonating a steel with some kind of adjustable bridge is going to do any harm...but i dont feel it will do any good either. what i mean is the example the video gives, he seriously puts 1 string out of position with the adjustment to prove the point...well, yeah - if you shorten 1 string as opposed to the others, it changes the scale length and it will be sour when played up the neck.
after he makes the adjustments, they seem to be, from the video, fairly lined up.
so yes, if you have a steel with an adjustable bridge, you need to make sure they are all intonated with all the other strings.....
now do you need that on a steel with a straight saddle? probably not.
adjustable compensated saddles have been around for 100 years - i think gibson had the first patent on the compensated adjustable bridge/saddle on their mandolins in the 19-teens. no 'slide' instrument to my knowledge ever came with an compensated saddle - so there must be no benefit. even hawaiian martin guitars never came with the 'intonated saddle' the fretted spanish versions had. so one must assume it did more harm than good for it would have been easier to use the same bridge/saddle for all models. the same logic applies to fender steels vs guitars...the individual adjustable saddle was A BIG DEAL with the new telecaster...surely if it made a difference Leo would have put it on the steels.
_________________
'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II |
|
|
|
Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
|
Posted 8 Apr 2015 12:14 pm
|
|
I have a laser-guided ear when it comes to other people's intonation - especially singers - but I have a convenient metaphorical set of ear muffs I put on when it comes to my own playing. When I do go into critical listening mode with my own recordings, I'm generally so appalled I'm ready to quit.
If Jerry Byrd's intonation was ever off I don't think I heard it, though he did have a near constant throbbing vibrato going on - so Doug, your point about wiggling and wobbling is well taken! 
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
|
|
|
David Matzenik
From:
Cairns, on the Coral Sea
|
Posted 8 Apr 2015 12:37 pm
|
|
If bridge compensation was necessary, Stradivari would have done it in 1700.
_________________
Don't go in the water after lunch. You'll get a cramp and drown. - Mother. |
|
|
|
Peter Lindelauf
From:
Penticton, BC
|
Posted 8 Apr 2015 2:26 pm
|
|
Someone, somewhere, mentioned that the sweet spot for perfect intonation while playing with a bar is only about 1-2 mm wide when it comes to bar/string contact vs sharp/flat. Bit skinnier than the proverbial barn door. No wonder it's so hard to hit sometimes.
_________________
...but you are the music / while the music lasts (TS Eliot) |
|
|
|
Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
|
Posted 8 Apr 2015 2:39 pm
|
|
| Mike Neer wrote: |
| I know perfection is something I'll never achieve, and it's not really a top priority to me. Is that sacrilege? |
A piano player in Tulsa told me you don't want to get it perfect. Perfect isn't fluid, it's fixed.
A recent post of an old tune of mine told me the tale, using 'distonation' subconsciously in order to produce
the desired affect. We do it all the time subconsciously, whether to intone or dis-intone, like vibrato, in a sense.
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
|
|
|
Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
|
Posted 8 Apr 2015 4:37 pm
|
|
Am I missing something here? I would seriously doubt he would ever get that C6th tuning to play in tune anywhere on the neck unless he sweetened (flattened) the E and A notes.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
|
|
|
David Matzenik
From:
Cairns, on the Coral Sea
|
|
|
|
J. Wilson
From:
Manitoba, Canada
|
Posted 11 Apr 2015 1:05 pm
|
|
I tune in anticipation of the song I am playing. If my low D is a bit sloshy and the song requires me to dig in, then I loosen the D.
If the song is gentle, then I stay true. This process has always worked for me.
_________________
If Music Be the Food of Love, Play On. -Shakespeare
___________________________________________
1941 Ric B6 / 1948 National Dynamic / 1951 Bronson Supro / Custom teak wood Allen Melbert / Tut Taylor Dobro / Gold Tone Dojo / Martin D15S / Eastman P10 |
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 13 Apr 2015 11:48 pm
|
|
Question this raises. Do pedal steels need to be intonated????
I have been thinking a lot about this but now I'm re-considering that what if you could intonate the instrument with accurate control over each string adjustment?
But then I ask how is what he is doing stretching or shortening the string any different to using the machine head tuners to do the same.
Thoughts anyone???
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
