The Steel Guitar Forum

Posted: **19 Oct 2003 6:18 am**

I have a couple of questions if I may. #1 when ordering "single" strings from the Forum it doesn't say anything about stainless. Are all Jagwire strings (11's 12,s) made of stainless?? & also is there much difference in a sit stainless & a jagwire stainless string. If there isn't , I want to put my money back in the Forum.

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JIM
"Zum SD10 3/6 ""Carter SD10" "74" LTD & Session LTD, Profex II "55" Esquire, "63 Epiphone, "63" Precision,
"71" Jazz

Posted: **19 Oct 2003 6:43 am**

All of the plain strings are stainless steel. For the wound strings, you need to specify the winding: stainless or nickel. The cores of all the strings are stainless steel.
http://b0b.com/products/strings.html#js

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<img align=left src="http://b0b.com/Officeb0b.gif" border="0"> Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com 

System Administrator

Posted: **19 Oct 2003 6:52 am**

Whoa, b0b-----unless Jagwire is doing something really different, aren't you mistaken? All plain strings are plain steel, wound strings have nickel, stainless or other alloy windings over plain steel----this is what I've always thought I knew.....

Posted: **19 Oct 2003 6:58 am**

hmmmm

I have always heard that SS cannot be stretched and thus was limited to the wound strings and only the winding part of those strings since the core could not be stretched if it were made of SS.

Does Jagwire know something the rest don't. Or is there a recent breakthough in the above scenario?

carl

Posted: **19 Oct 2003 8:34 am**

Also, many stainless alloys are not attracted to magnetism,therefore would not activate the pickups unless they had a plain steel core. Maybe the stainless used in guitar strings IS attracted to magnetism. Does anybody know? Merle

Posted: **19 Oct 2003 8:50 am**

Plain (carbon) steel is used for "plain" strings and as the core of wound strings because it is both ferromagnetic and ductile.

As far as stainless steels ... they "aren't all created equal"

...

Austenitic stainless (300 series) is actually quite ductile due to its Nickel content ... but because it is "non-magnetic" it would be a poor choice for core material in wound strings.

Martensitic stainless (400 series) is not very ductile but it is magnetic.

Interestingly enough (yeah, real interesting

) the Modulus of Elasticity for both 300 and 400 series ( 193 CPa & 200 GPa) is less than that of plain steel and alloy steel (207 GPa).

 To compare ... an elastomere like nitrile has a modulus of 0.0034 GPa). 

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www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 19 October 2003 at 09:59 AM.][This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 17 June 2004 at 08:52 AM.]

Posted: **19 Oct 2003 8:59 am**

Thanks Rick,

So is it my understanding that it is not the elasticity so much that is the problem; rather the magnetablity of SS over nickle steel that prevents string makers from using SS on the plain string as well as the core of wound srings?

carl

Posted: **19 Oct 2003 9:15 am**

Ductility (ability of a metal to plastically deform without breaking or fracturing) is very important in "wire drawing".

It is the combination of the ferromagnetic properties of plain (carbon) steel and its ductility that makes it ideal for use as both the core of wound strings and as "plain strings".

Posted: **19 Oct 2003 9:27 am**

I think I got something started: Sorry

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JIM
"Zum SD10 3/6 ""Carter SD10" "74" LTD & Session LTD, Profex II "55" Esquire, "63 Epiphone, "63" Precision,
"71" Jazz

Posted: **19 Oct 2003 9:41 am**

What about the ferromagnetic properties of "cat-gut"? ...just kidding.

This is useful and interesting information.

What is the best type of string for nonpedal steel guitar? I know there are many opinions on strings; but I would very much like for an accomplished player to state the very best type and gauge for a given pitch, on both 22&1/2" and 26" scale guitars.

Many thanks, Rick

Posted: **19 Oct 2003 9:56 am**

Wow, it sounds like Rick is very knoledgable in metallurgy. Since I'm only a machinist I'll take his word on this.

A couple of questions:
Isn't nickle also "non magnetic"?

And also on some of my Jagwire string packaging they are labled .011 ST PLAIN. I wonder what the "ST" means. This may be part of the confusion. Maybe some people take this as "stainless steel" which should be "SS". Merle

Posted: **19 Oct 2003 10:16 am**

Looks like it's "Horseshoe Magnets at Twenty Paces"...

Interesting, and I've always wondered why the "stainless thing" works so well for the wound strings. I use Stainless GHS myself lately. Maybe the stainless covering being less magnetically attracted makes for more "sass".

On the different magnetic atractant properties of the different kinds of SS, I have my two "Classified" SS bars, and the one Bullseye ( which am REALLY starting to like more and more). The two are slightly magnetally attracted. The Bullseye isn't at all.

Hmm....

Time to unwrap a few wound strings and haul out the horseshoe...

EJL

Posted: **19 Oct 2003 11:10 am**

Okay, let's add some complexity to the question by introducing the old rule that your bar and strings should be different metals: SS bar with nickel strings, chrome bar with SS strings. So is a SS bar okay with non-stainless steel unwound strings? And how important is the bar rule? I've used a SS bar with SS strings and it seems to work fine. Chrome bars are a little slicker, but that's true for steel or nickel strings.

Posted: **19 Oct 2003 1:20 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Isn't nickle also "non magnetic"?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nickel is ferromagnetic ... like iron and cobalt. It has a lower magnetic permeability than iron but it is used in making very important magnetic/electronic alloys ... like Alnico and Mu-metal.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>On the different magnetic atractant properties of the different kinds of SS, I have my two "Classified" SS bars, and the one Bullseye ( which am REALLY starting to like more and more). The two are slightly magnetally attracted. The Bullseye isn't at all.

Hmm....

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as the stainless bars ...

If they are 400 series (like Pearse) they will be exhibit magnetic properties.

If they are 300 series ... they will have no magnetic properties in the annealed state ... although ...

After cold working 304 may exhibit quite strong response to a magnet, whereas 310 and 316 will in be almost totally non-responsive. The change in magnetic response is due to atomic lattice straining and formation of martensite. In general, the higher the nickel to chromium ratio the more stable is the austenitic structure and the less magnetic response that will be induced by cold work.

So is a SS bar okay with non-stainless steel unwound strings? And how important is the bar rule?

As far as the stainless bar on stainless wound strings ... its a Coefficient of Friction and an Asperity "thang".

Asperities are microscopic surface projections. Friction depends on the asperities of the surfaces in contact. Pressure on asperities will deform the contact area "plastically" (asperities can weld together). Therefore, frictional resistance arises from sliding objects breaking and creating bonds created by asperities.

Two "like" materials will tend to have higher coefficients of friction due to the attractive nature of the asperities.

EX:

Steel on Steel ... static COF = 0.74

Aluminum on Steel ... static COF = 0.61

Aluminum on Aluminum ... static COF = 1.35

 I had an email that said "Please start teachin' again ... you are drivin' us nuts .

Just tryin' to help ...

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www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 19 October 2003 at 02:29 PM.]

Posted: **19 Oct 2003 2:17 pm**

Rick.

You're teaching here, and I for one appreciate it as do the others I'm sure.

More questions will be forthcoming, I'm sure. Thanks for your answers.

EJL

Posted: **19 Oct 2003 4:52 pm**

Merle: The ST stands for "short twist".

Posted: **19 Oct 2003 8:09 pm**

Keep it up, Rick, I'm learning lots here. Do you have a figure for the coefficient of friction for hard chrome and steel? Chome and nickel? Steel and nickel?

I like to use SS strings for playing live, for their durability and their brightness. I'm also addicted to my SS double-ended twister bars, which aren't offered chrome-plated. I'm trying to decide if it is worth the trouble to have someone local put some coats of hard chrome on my bars.

Posted: **20 Oct 2003 4:17 am**

Chrome on Steel is 0.19
Chrome on Chrome is 0.41

I can't find the others. The whole Coefficient of Friction thing is abit tricky ... it really should be listed as substance X on substance Y ... some manufacturers just list a COF for their product as an intrinsic property but it really ain't

Then there is that whole static vs. sliding and dry vs. lubricated ...

Funny you mention the "Twister". I liked mine alot and I sent it to the lady who cryos my magnets. It did harden it up a bit ... made it kinda an eerie yellow color.

If you really love your bar .. hard chroming is certainly an option but look into Thin Dense Chrome. There are several companies that do it (and have slightly different approaches) .... this is more of an "impregnating" process than a coating and is basically permanent (won't chip, etc).

Following Eric W.'s "clues" about the Bullseye bars (which I am anxiously awaiting delivery) leads me to think TDC is involved.

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www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 20 October 2003 at 05:20 AM.]

Posted: **20 Oct 2003 6:15 am**

Rick.

The Armoloy Process is I believe what you are referring to.

I have a bar from Bullseye that has this coating/process. It's the one that is non magnetically attractive. Here's the link. Armoly TDC.

Im not sure which exact "process" is used, and I'm assured that "just anybody" can't have piecework done, so's not to be able to "supplant" Bullseye's franchise. I was not told that it is a "secret" process at any rate.

Now that I'm not "reviewing it" as I did previously, I can tell you that it's AMAZING stuff.

My two "favorite" bars are now in the bull pen.

I've been playing the last couple weeks of HARD playing gigs, and I'm finding a whole new world, where there's no "grating", about half the string noise, and it's HARD to feel the strings when doing rolling vibrato. Also if your axe sits at an angle like mine the bar will slip off the strings if you leave it sitting on the strings. I'm actually having to adjust my technique to keep from "wiggling" the bar. ( See Bill Hankey "Fishtailing Bar")

They coat bearings with it for one application, and I see where Sychorsky ( sp) helicopters has been in some kind of litigation with them over bearing failure. They also are used on USMC Helicopter 1.

Anyhow, this stuff doesn't scuff that I can tell, and like I said you can't even feel the strings.

I don't know how long it will last, but if they coat ball bearings in helicopters with it, and it does even half of what the claims are, It's definitely the thing of the future.

They say it is used for bronze as well, and not aluminum, titanium and another type, like moly. Also that before it cracks or peels, the bas metal must give way.

I'd be interested to see what other uses the PSG industry makes of it. It's FANTASTIC stuff. I've never had a chrome plated bar, so my Classified alloy SS bars are all I've had to go on for 25 years, but until now I've never tried anything that was more "inert".

As far as "lifetime guarantees", I dunno. At my age ( 50 ) they mean less and less in my buying decisions...

I'd be interested in learning more abut the exact process independent of the "advertising" on the sites I've found.

Thanks again Rick, from all of us "inquiring minds".

EJL

Posted: **20 Oct 2003 6:45 am**

Meadville's Armtec

Meadville did some for me. They would do piecework .. but had a minimum ... so I got together all kinds of stuff (a bunch of old Dunlop bars, etc) to send.

Here's some more ...

Electro-Coating's Electroalloy

Hi-Tech's TDC-1

The Armoloy that Eric pointed to looks really

with the diamond "encrusted" TDC. They have various franchises all over.

I can't wait to get my Bullseye ...

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www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 20 October 2003 at 07:55 AM.]

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