The Steel Guitar Forum

would someone please take the time to tell me what and where this cycle of 4ths apply, and also whats known as the natural order thanks dumb joe in wv and yea i have shoes lol

Joseph, I think you are referring to a chord progression that progresses to the 4th chords such as D, G, C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab. This is the progression of the bridge to "Raisin'
The Dickens". Note that G is the 4th chord from D and so on. You might be referring to a series of notes instead. That could be a string of notes that are the forth interval from the last note, such as, A, B, C#, Eb, F, G and so on. I know we use a circle of 2's on a lick in "Four Wheel Drive" where it ends goes from the 5 chord back to the 1 chord. I usually leave this type stuff to guys better versed but this is my take on your question.

Here you go. All on one page.
http://www.apassion4jazz.net/circle5.html

A picture is worth ....
Clockwise is cycle of fourths
Counter clockwise is cycle of fifths.


<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Ron Randall on 15 October 2003 at 09:19 PM.]</p></FONT>

To expand on what Jerry said, first, briefly let's talk about intervals and inversions. 5ths invert to 4ths which is simply, C up to G, a 5th, (C,D,E,F,G;1,2,3,4,5) when it's inverted is, G up to C, a 4th (G,A,B,C;1,2,3,4). It's the same notes in different order and cycle 5 inverts to cycle 4, depending on which direction it's going. I realize that that sounds confusing.

A full cycle is like a wheel in that where it ends is back at the beginning, so cycle 4, starting on C going up is C to F to Bb to Eb to Ab to Db (C#) to F# to B to E to A to D to G back to C. Cycle 4 going down is the reverse, C to G to D to A.....and so on back to C. You'll notice that we touched all 12 notes/keys.

4ths invert to 5ths.

Cycle 5 going down is C to F to Bb to Eb to Ab to Db(C#) to F# to B to E to A to D to G back to C.

This is where turnarounds come from, VI -II-V-I; A- to D- to G7 to C and it's one of the ways to modulate to another key. We want to modulate from the key of C to the key of Ab, we could play C7 then F7 then Bb7 then Eb7 landing on Ab. This can get a lot more complicated, but I hope this helps

Oh, and why is it cycle 5 and not cycle 2 or 3, a little music theory here, because diatonic harmonies typically resolve dominant to tonic, which is 5 to 1, G7 to C. There are 12 keys and the chord that defines what key you/we are in is the dominant chord. In traditional harmony and theory, each key has 3 minor 7th chords, 2 major 7th chords, but only one dominant 7th chord, (there also is a minor 7th b5 chord which we'll conveniently ignore). If you see a G7, it's the key of C. If there's a C7, the only key with a C7 is F. There's no C7 in the key of C because there are no Bb's in the C scale. So in the hierarchy of chords, the 5 chord is important because it defines the key and is the chord that's "going somewhere".

Carl, thank you.

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by chas smith on 15 October 2003 at 07:52 PM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by chas smith on 16 October 2003 at 12:34 AM.]</p></FONT>

Bless you Chas,

That could not have been said better. If you are not engaging in "writing" in some capacity, you have missed your calling.

Thanks,

carl

Something else you may find helpful:

Starting from C, which has no flats or sharps, progress around the cycle by fourths. Each new stop will have one more flat than the previous. (F has 1 flat, Bb has two, Eb has 3, etc.)

Starting from C and going around the cycle the other away, by fifths, each new stop will have one more sharp than the previous. (G has one sharp, D has two, A has three, etc.)

If (like me) you don't read music all that often, this can be a good aid for memory on key signatures. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 15 October 2003 at 09:16 PM.]</p></FONT>

Joseph....notice that when you pick any key on the circle graph, that on either side, left or right, is the 4th AND 5th of that key. To me, this is a natural explanation why the I-IV-V progression is such a basic one found in so many forms of music....Country, blues, rock etc....The 4th and the 5th have the most tonal "gravitational pull" towards the root/tonic in musical progressions AND in building chords. They (the 4 & 5) have a natural, easy to hear relationship to the key of many songs (or chords). The further you get from the tonic, the more tension(dissonance) and less tendancy to resolve(tonal gravity) you have. Notice that the farthest interval (180 degrees) from the tonic is the b5,(aka the "tritone") which is the most dissonant and farthest away from any resolution to the key that youre in. Notice that the tritone divides all 12 notes totally symetrically.

Also notice that whenever you go either direction on the cycle (starting in the key of C) that each step will add a flat or a sharp. On the bandstand you'll often see players tell each other what key the tune is in by showing fingers. "One finger up" means 1 Sharp or key of G. "Three down" would mean 3 flats (key of Eb) etc. etc.

I've heard the cycle of 5ths described in very arcane, almost metaphysical ways. I've heard it as totally corresponding to the Eastern Yin-Yang philosophy. I've also heard it described as a direct correlation to the Holy Trinity. We all must agree that music is a pretty spiritual and totally natural phenomena don't you think?
The cycle of 5ths is a pretty handy overview of all things Harmonic.

p.s. Does anybody know why the chart at that Jazz site has the sharps on the left and flats on the right? I've seen it the other way around more often. Is one way more enharmonically correct than the other?

thanks guys just what me and a friend needs he ask me and i said heck i dont know lets ask the pros. joe

Hey Joseph,
A good tune to hear the cycle of 4ths in action is the Patty Loveless song "Timber I'm Falling in Love". The bridge goes to the cycle and winds up on a #5 chord before going back the the normal progression. Have a good 'un.........JH

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Joe

There is a method to this madness! A scale is 8 notes. (CDEFGABC). It is made up of intervals of whole, whole, half, - and then it goes up a whole step and is repeated. (C-D = whole, D-E =whole, E-F =half, up a whole step to F-G = whole, and repeat whole, whole, Half.

The last 4 notes of a scale are the first 4 notes of another scale!


If you do an ascending in C, your FIFTH note is G. If you start a new scale at G, and use the same pattern, you will need F# for your seventh. Key of G = 1 sharp.

If you ascend a G scale to the fifth note, you will be at D. If you start a new scale there, you will require a C# as well as your F# to complete the pattern. Key of D = 2#, ETC...

Almost there - if you do a descending scale in C, you have CBAGFEDC. (C-B =half, B-A = whole, A-G = whole, go down a whole step and repeat.) Descending 5 notes to F, brings you to the FOURTH of the C scale. If you start a new descending scale from this note, (F), you will find you require a B flat to make it work! Key of F = 1 flat.If you go down 5 more notes, and start a new scale , you will need 2 flats, Key of B flat = 2 flats, ETC...

So...C to G ascending, is a FIFTH. G to C Ascending is a FORTH C to F descending, is a FIFTH, and F to C ascending Is a FOURTH. Any interval can be describe by the distance between both notes, but the 2 intervals always = 9. (4 and 5 = 9. C-E is a THIRD, so E-C Must be a SIXTH. 3 and 6 = 9.)

Mike Perlowin's book, "Music Theory in the Real World", explains it much more clearly.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Budd Kelley on 16 October 2003 at 06:12 AM.]</p></FONT>

I use the circle of fourths/fifths to help me memorize a specific "lick" or passage; After figuring out all of the notes, I will turn a metronome on a slow speed and play the passage/lick in all twelve keys using the cycle. It has really helped me expand my knowledge of the fret board.

I would just add a nuance to Chas's excellent explanation above. He notes that only one dominant 7th chord (the V7) occurs naturally in any given key, but you should be aware (and perhaps you are) that there can be other dominant seventh chords occurring in that key (often called "secondary dominants"). This is especially true in the blues (think C7 > F7 > C7 > G7) or in songs that make use of the circle of 4ths (e.g., "Right or Wrong", or "Anytime", "Sweet Georgia Brown"...). Also the 7th is widely used as a passing chord to move up a 4th (e.g., I > I7 >IV). Of course the distance moved from I7 to IV is the same as from V7 back to I. But I didn't want folks who might be relatively new to music theory to misread Chas's intent; other dominant 7th chords, besides the V7, CAN and DO appear in any key.

<SMALL>tonal "gravitational pull" towards the root/tonic in musical progressions</SMALL>

Rick S. nails it. This is the heart and soul of what it is about. The rest of it is just math.