Wasted Motion Of The Bar

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 8 Sep 2003 4:42 am

Would it not be wise to consider the shortest route on the steel guitar fretboard, to the melody lines? All the fanciful stuff, which includes flashy bar movements, can weaken a players chances, of leaning into a progression, and producing the sounds that are the most captivating.

Bill Hankey

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 8 Sep 2003 5:38 am

If captivating sounds is the issue then in my opinion there is no such thing as wasted bar movement. It might be the only thing that makes the melody line sound the way one wants to express the musical feeling/statement. It might also be that the shortest/easiest route is not producing the result one wants. Knowing several places to play the same melody line is one key to unlock the captivating sounds of the steel.

But there are times when bar movement is not stricly linked to the music but more to the visual effect and that might be considered wasted but it adds to the personal style of the person playing.

Bengt Erlandsen[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 08 September 2003 at 07:11 AM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 8 Sep 2003 7:18 am

Bengt E.,

I once asked the great Chet Atkins in a prearranged interview, about a steel guitarist from Pennsylvania who played steel guitar with his feet. Chet knew instantly who I was referring to. Having no arms, he quite often appeared at the "Louisiana Hayride", according to "Chet". I know from experience that it is possible to play adequately without placing the bar above or below a chosen key, if pedals and knee levers are properly engaged. This would be further proof that captivation of the general audiences depends greatly on the knees, and footwork. I'm aware of the magnitude of the glisses, such as sliding into chordal resolutions. However, all that sliding does not impart true melody lines.

Bill H. [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 08 September 2003 at 09:08 AM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 8 Sep 2003 7:39 am

How and where a given note or notes is played is the secret that separates the greats from the "wannabees".

If one watches the likes of a Jerry Byrd, Buddy Emmons or Paul Franklin, they will see the ultimate in this scenario.

Picking a particular note or notes because it is the closest doth not always produce the best choice in musical timbre. And this is where these players excel to the highest degree.

Each of them has been endowed by Jesus with the inate talent to make "on the spot" lightning quick choices of WHERE a given note or notes should be played.

The END result of this God given talent is why they are who they are; and where they are in the realm of our musical genre'

May HE continue to bless them with this awesome and incredible talent,

carl

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 8 Sep 2003 8:21 am

Carl D.,

I call on your great wisdom which is reflected in articles of interest, appearing on the forum. The Jimmy Bryant and Speedy West combination, is a fine example of melody, versus bar slides, and no melody. Can you offer a thought or two, as you recall their famous recordings? Thanks...

Bill H. [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 08 September 2003 at 10:06 AM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 8 Sep 2003 9:15 am

There's no doubt that pedals and knee levers have cut down on necessary bar movement. But, what is "necessary"? As in a lot of things to do with steel, there really is no "right or wrong". There are personal choices that every player makes, as to where to find a note on the guitar, but these "differences" are what separates one player's style from another, and indeed forms part of his signature sound. Some players are wont to use mostly single-string melody lines, and others use mostly two or three string harmonies for the same melody. Some play using high strings fairly low on the neck, and others using lower strings, but in a higher register, but neither is essentially "wrong". What you prefer boils down to personal preference, and your knowledge and familiarity with the instrument.

As to the wild bar effects that produce sound effects as opposed to melody lines, they too have their place in certain songs or styles of music. They are (IMHO) a "gimmick" or novelty, more or less. As so, they must not be overused, lest they become trite and stale. Variety is key if a player is to become more capable, well-rounded, and accepted by all players.

To paraphrase, Bill, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Chris Forbes · Post by **Chris Forbes** » 8 Sep 2003 9:36 am

I've watched Mr. Charleton use bar slants where a knee lever could have been used. But it sure sounded purdy to me, I would argue that although the difference is subtle, there is a difference. I figured out a couple of Lloyd Green licks once and just figured they didn't sound right when I played them because I suck. It was pointed out to me that Lloyd used bar slants on the particular lick in question and that's why it sounded better (not to mention the fact that Lloyd doesn't suck!!!).[This message was edited by Chris Forbes on 08 September 2003 at 10:36 AM.]

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 8 Sep 2003 9:46 am

the glisses are what make the characteristic sound of the pedal steel, to me. If you want to make it sound like a piano, why not just play a piano?

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 8 Sep 2003 10:02 am

Bill,

I am honored an humbled you would ask me to comment on these two giants in the field of stringed music.

When I was a young (probably over zealoused) technician for RCA, I stumbled one day into a music store in Jax, Fla. The first thing that hit my eye was that now famous album that Speedy West and Jimmy Bryant cut. Since I was then, and am now, a steel guitar "freak", I bought it.

I was sad when it was not at all what I thought it would be. Being so used to the sounds of a Little Roy Wiggins or Jerry Byrd, I did not cotten at all to what Speedy (or Jimmy) was doing on that album. So I threw it away.

As time passed and my ears were made aware and grew more acclimated to other styles of playing and music, I often thought about the terrible thing I had done in throwing that awesome album away.

I hunted for the album for many years to buy again so I could now enjoy and appreciate the awesome dexterity and talents of these two greats. But I was not successful until a few years ago, a dear friend I had met at the ISGC made me a tape of that album.

All I can say now is what an idiot I was when I first played that record. Both Jimmy Bryant and Speedy were light years ahead of their time. NOT only in the type of music they played; but how they played it.

They were incredibly great musicians and their minds heard things most of us can only dream about. My hat is off to both of them for the inate ability to do what they achieved.

And they too fall into the likes of the 3 players I mentioned in my previos post on the subject.

It is my understanding that Speedy has not been well. And I have no idea about Jimmy, since I have not heard anything in years. But be that as it may, they made their mark in the world of music when it comes to being absolutely great players.

May Jesus bless them both always, and all of you,

carl

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 8 Sep 2003 10:45 am

Little Roy Wiggins, Don Helms, Jerry Byrd, Dewitt Scott, they all have a very down to earth sound on steel, that can't be up staged by playing in a fast and complicated way. I too was disappointed with my first Speedy/Bryant greatest hits CD, I know they are Great players, but something just wasn't grabbing me the way those other fella's can. I really enjoy playing in that easy Don Helms style and singing hit songs he played on, reminds me of getting off work in Texas in the summer and stepping into an air conditioned corner bar for a cold one and alittle Hank on the jukebox, aahh! Now that's what I'm talking bout.

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 8 Sep 2003 12:13 pm

Bill H.
I agree with using knees and pedals to produce a melody line might work better than just using the bar. That is one of the advantages of having pedals/levers. They are precise in changing pitch if one does not move the bar. The bar on the other hand is precise in controlling slides. So whatever the melody calls for use the appropiate tool.
You mentioned both Chet Atkins and Jimmy Bryant. Two of my favorite guitar players that certainly not did things the easiest way on 6string guitar. And Jimmy Bryant's 12string playing with the string-pairs tuned to intervals is just out of this world.
The albums w Speedy West and Jimmy Bryant is a type of music that I have yet to hear on another cd. Cool playin

Bengt Erlandsen

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 8 Sep 2003 12:26 pm

Carl D.,

Thank you for sharing some of the great excitement and joys that have enriched your life experiences. It is very rewarding to read for the first time, pertinent data which immediately suggests a setting in my mind, of how you reacted to impulses brought about, by an unexpected event. This is truly a "state of the art" segment of rich Americana, as it relates to the development of the steel guitar, and its players.

Bill H.

Tom Jordan · Post by **Tom Jordan** » 8 Sep 2003 12:27 pm

Jesse, I hear you there...nothin' better on a hot day than a dark bar, cold beer and Don helms or Jerry Byrd on a Hank song.

As far far as the "other bar" motion, just imagine John Huey playing "Look at Us" up and down instead of left and right...I don't think that can be considered needless bar movement...

Tom Jordan

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 8 Sep 2003 12:50 pm

Tom J.,

Strange that you would mention John Hughey's now famous slide in Eb,in the song "Look At Us". However, the gliss cannot begin to compare with John's tremolo effect, and his penchant for maintaining precise timing, which is added to his beautiful melody lines. After his "ride", according to the written music, he moves up a half step to the key of (E), and continues to enhance Vince's great vocalization.

Tom Jordan · Post by **Tom Jordan** » 8 Sep 2003 1:10 pm

Bill,

I'm honored to be part of your discussion. I'm not nearly a "deep file" as you appear to be and hope that I do not appear to be minimalizing your idea. Yes, I think most melodies or ideas can take the shortest route on the fret board (up and down)...however, the additional motion of the bar allows the artist to add much more emotion to his playing.

It seems that the steel parts that really get to us are emotional movements that the steel guitar is noted for. You could play it more economically and get the licks in but would the chicks really dig it?

That as deep as I can go. From reading you other post Bill, I'm thinking that you are going somewhere with this...your other topics (vertical fret board) are very interesting and unique.

Regards,

Tom Jordan

Colm Chomicky · Post by **Colm Chomicky** » 8 Sep 2003 3:17 pm

Wasted motion of the bar is observed after it is accidently dropped on the floor and rolls away. I always try to minimize this

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 8 Sep 2003 3:40 pm

Tom J.,

I appreciate your kind statements.
It's difficult to "go anywhere" in a discussion, unless someone hotly contests a concept, which then becomes "challenged". If the refuter of a given concept comes out swinging, it provides a meditative arena in which to set in motion, strong defenses, to establish which of the debated issues will survive.

Bill H.

Moon in Alaska · Post by **Moon in Alaska** » 8 Sep 2003 5:44 pm

Hi guys....
I think the different ways to get notes on a pedal steel falls into the same catagory as using 3 part harmony, 2 part or single notes.
Some of the best recording I have ever done,
I used a combination of all three...yes, sometimes I seem to get the effect I want
to use 2 or 3 SINGLE notes in a row, and maybe end the line with a triad.
Heck...there is probable no real answer, just what we think sounds best...
Moon

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Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 9 Sep 2003 2:11 am

Colm C.,

Speaking of dropping the bar on the floor, BUZZ EVANS, the Las Vegas guitarist/steel guitarist, was once seen recovering a slippery bar from the floor, without missing a beat. Can you top that, as anything short of a phenomenal personage, who is totally aware of wasted motion?
Please, all reports of lightning fast reflexes, must be verifiable,
and not based on credulity.

Bill H.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 9 Sep 2003 2:47 am

Moon,

I can attempt to visualize your colorful career, as you have flown over such breathtaking beauty of the earth's surfaces. I wish that those experiences in Alaska, were published in book form, and to feature inclusive material, pertaining to your studies of the steel guitar, from start to present day.

Bill H.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 9 Sep 2003 6:31 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

"You should keep your bar moving at all times. Moving into a position, leaving that position or applying your tremelo."

"Play each note or chord as you move past it."

"Don't hold the note for the full count then 'jump' to the next note. Start your move to the next note earlier so you can 'say something' between the notes. This is were the 'liquid sound' of the steel guitar comes from "

"It's the seemless transition from one chord to the next that makes the steel guitar the most expressive instrument in the world"

"You can't catch any fish if your bait is out of the water".

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jerry Byrd

From a critique of a song I sent him ... Oct. 1987

------------------

www.horseshoemagnets.com

John Cox · Post by **John Cox** » 9 Sep 2003 6:48 am

Wasted bar movment...Let me think,..That would be anytime I put the bar on the strings.
J.C.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 9 Sep 2003 3:50 pm

Gee, I always watch for the pedal steel guitar player in any televised performance:
1st - to see how much camera time they'll get,
2nd - to see what guitar is being played
3rd - to see if I recognize the musician
4th - to see if I'm really gonna be envious when he/she plays the whole steel set with the bar at only one or two frets, yet plays a full and rewarding lick. Some of the guys/gals with 5,6, 7 or 8 knee levers can be real hard to figure out for those of us only endowed with 4.

Regardless, when the steel player is on I'm glued to the screen.

The most common response to a beautiful lick is "How in the hell did he do that.....?"

The only wasted motion I have is when I have to put the bar away for the night.

Emmons S-10 Dekely S-10 Nashville 400[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 09 September 2003 at 04:54 PM.]

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 9 Sep 2003 4:41 pm

Just go back and listen to John behind Conway..Bar movement ..you betcha.. Bud

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 9 Sep 2003 4:43 pm

John C.,

Please, let us try to establish a serious note for a moment. I really enjoy the humor involved in any course of action, that requires a skillful approach. That is to say that we're all trying to reach the same goals, and to accept disappointments gracefully, nothing takes the place of a little humor. Laughing at a difficult task is a strong indication, of a person who is not easily defeated.

While returning to the thread, I would like to press the issue of wasted bar motion. How many times have you noticed a player equipped with a full set of knee levers, who just favors one or two, and the unused levers just dangle? There are a great number of players who find the (C) pedal of the B.E. setup awkward, and rarely attempt to go near the B and C pedal combination. As a result a lot of wasted motion is required to "fish"
out the melody lines. This in turn dampens the ability to squeeze out the best a melody has to offer. Whenever a player is inclined to utilize all changes available, his total sound improves with leaps and bounds.

Bill H.