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Topic: Extended Chords |
Niels Andrews
From:
Salinas, California, USA
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Posted 29 Jan 2015 7:49 am |
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If you were playing something like a F7#9 how would you rate the notes as to importance? Are there set rules for that or is it just experience as to what sounds good? I would think first you would drop the fifth and then possibly the third? I haven't really found something I like.
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 29 Jan 2015 8:08 am
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I would just play the F7 and let somone else add the #9th. Unless the #9th is the melody note, that is.
A G# chord would contain three notes of the F7#9 chord, including the #9th. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 29 Jan 2015 8:17 am
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I would leave out the 5th or root. I would try to play the 3rd, 7th and #9. If I could only play 2 notes I would shoot for 3rd and #9 or 3rd and 7th.
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Bob |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 29 Jan 2015 8:51 am
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The only 3 notes you need for a 7#9 are the 3, b7 and #9.
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 29 Jan 2015 9:28 am
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Depending on how the 7th string is tuned a F7#9 is available at 3rd fret on strings 9 7 5 4 w half Apedal and E's-F.
I prefer the sound of Root 3rd b7 #9 in that order without the 5th.
As to what sounds good.....If rest of band play the Root and the 3rd in some way, add the b7 and #9 at 4th fret on strings 5 & 4( no pedal/levers) and make sure to play those 2 strings deliberatly flat of the 4th fret.
W A R N I N G !!! if some other in the band play the b7 or #9 already, dont play deliberatly flat on those two strings.
B.Erlandsen |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 29 Jan 2015 10:08 am
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
| The only 3 notes you need for a 7#9 are the 3, b7 and #9. |
Mike is correct. The bass player will handle the root, and the 5th is implied by the harmonic structure of that. The 3rd is necessary to tell if it's major or minor. The b7 makes it a dominant, and the #9 adds the essential dissonance that makes it a jazz chord.
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 29 Jan 2015 3:25 pm
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A very good chord (tritone theory) in that you can descend the chord form in ½ tones as an example in the key of G of E7#9 to A13 to D7#9 to Gmaj13
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Quentin Hickey
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 29 Jan 2015 5:09 pm
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Thats pretty slick Stuart!
When you guys are listening to a guitar player chording along and you hear a dissonant note played on top of the chord, how do you go about figuring out by ear whether its a 9th, 13th etc. Do you immediately use the root and work back from that or is it just a matter of training your ear to familiarize the sounds. I am worming through some intermediate C6 lessons and I am trying to figure out here is that rainy day as Buddy plays it.
Seems to me it would be most efficient to compare root to top note. Than figure out weather its major or minor. |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 29 Jan 2015 6:33 pm
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It depends on what chord the rest of the music is suggesting. If the rest were in some form of D7 you would recognize the note in the scale.
So obviously in that instance there would be no mistaking a 13 note with a #9 note in that scale.
The 6 note of the D7 scale would be heard as 13th not a 6th because a 6th chord is not a Dom chord and the b3 of the scale would be heard as a #9 in terms of a Dom7 chord not as a minor. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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John Scanlon
From:
Jackson, Mississippi, USA
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Quentin Hickey
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 30 Jan 2015 4:00 am
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John I wasnt trying to be specific about a giutar player
. I was just wondering how people pick up on chords by ear.
Sometimes I have a hard time trying figure them out if the root is missing. |
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Quentin Hickey
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 30 Jan 2015 8:08 am
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| Is a Tritone defined as a third, seventh and anything beyond that??? |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 30 Jan 2015 8:47 am
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| "tritone" means the interval of a diminished fifth or augmented fourth. In the major scale it occurs between the third degree and seventh degree. In other words, in the key of C, it's the interval between F and B. The name refers to its width of 3 whole steps. |
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Michael Hummel
From:
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 30 Jan 2015 8:50 am
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No, a tritone doesn't mean three tones...it is the very specific name for a note plus a note a b5 above. That interval divides the octave exactly in half (the note a b5 above the b5 is an octave above the first note).
A lot of cool theory things come out of this.
Dang, I see the eager cow beat me to an answer... 
Mike
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 30 Jan 2015 11:50 am
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The eager cow  now that there is funny.
Love them tritones!! |
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John Scanlon
From:
Jackson, Mississippi, USA
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Posted 30 Jan 2015 12:40 pm
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| Quentin Hickey wrote: |
John I wasnt trying to be specific about a giutar player
. I was just wondering how people pick up on chords by ear.
Sometimes I have a hard time trying figure them out if the root is missing. |
The root may not be missing if the bassist is covering it, but I was just making reference to the old joke about how to get a guitar player to stop playing.
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Quentin Hickey
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 30 Jan 2015 1:14 pm
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Quentin Hickey
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 30 Jan 2015 1:26 pm
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OK so it means a flat not 5 up from the intended root note, will the tritone chord ALWAYS be a dominant seventh chord formation??
How can this fit into a diatonic chord scale?? thanks  |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 30 Jan 2015 1:53 pm
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This is a generalisation, but most extended or altered chords have a normal 3rd and 7th and then mess with the 5th, 9th or whatever. So the 3rd/7th tritone fits most of them - Stuart's example is a good one.
Picking out chords by ear can be tough even if you've done it all your life. I find it helps to listen horizontally, by which I mean listen for (or imagine) harmony lines between the melody and bass, rather than trying to listen vertically all the time over an ever-changing root. Once I've got these inner notes down I compare them with the bass. For instance an Ab might turn out to be the #9 in a G7#9 or part of a Ddim etc etc. - kind of musical detective work. Hope this makes sense and is some help to someone.
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 30 Jan 2015 2:16 pm
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| Quentin Hickey wrote: |
| OK so it means a flat not 5 up from the intended root note, |
No, tritone means an interval of 6 half-steps = 3 whole steps = augmented 4th = diminished 5th
| Quentin Hickey wrote: |
| the tritone chord ALWAYS be |
Tritone is an interval, not a chord.
| Quentin Hickey wrote: |
| How can this fit into a diatonic chord scale?? |
The only place it can occur within an unaltered diatonic major scale is between the third and seventh scale degrees; i.e. between F and B if you are in the key of C. But of course you are allowed to alter the notes of the scale, and play black keys on the piano in the key of C. So it is common to find tritone intervals in many chords, especially secondary dominants. Another common instance would be II of a minor key, which contains a tritone between root and 5th. Also you often hear Fm6 in the key of C, with tritone between D and A-flat. There are other uses, less common. |
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Niels Andrews
From:
Salinas, California, USA
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Posted 30 Jan 2015 2:53 pm
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I would like to hear the eager cow's answer to the original question. Please.
_________________
Die with Memories. Not Dreams.
Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo. |
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Jamie Mitchell
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 30 Jan 2015 5:09 pm Re: Extended Chords
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| Niels Andrews wrote: |
| If you were playing something like a F7#9 how would you rate the notes as to importance? Are there set rules for that or is it just experience as to what sounds good? I would think first you would drop the fifth and then possibly the third? I haven't really found something I like. |
to me, the classic #9 sound is: root, third, flat seven, flat third - low to high... |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 30 Jan 2015 5:16 pm Re: Extended Chords
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| Niels Andrews wrote: |
| I would think first you would drop the fifth and then possibly the third? |
If you omit the 3rd, it would just be a minor chord (minor 7th probably).
Stuart Legg showed the 3 notes that give the +9 (actually 7+9) chord its sound. You can omit the 5th without changing the character of the chord. In most popular music situations there would be a bass player playing the root, so it wouldn't usually help if the steel player plays it too. I think all the other replies have already said all this. |
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Jim Robbins
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 31 Jan 2015 12:02 pm
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| Quentin Hickey wrote: |
Thats pretty slick Stuart!
When you guys are listening to a guitar player chording along and you hear a dissonant note played on top of the chord, how do you go about figuring out by ear whether its a 9th, 13th etc. Do you immediately use the root and work back from that or is it just a matter of training your ear to familiarize the sounds. I am worming through some intermediate C6 lessons and I am trying to figure out here is that rainy day as Buddy plays it.
Seems to me it would be most efficient to compare root to top note. Than figure out weather its major or minor. |
There are some extensions you can learn to recognize pretty easily (like V7#9 -- listen to Purple Haze; augmenteds are another, dim 7ths are another) -- because they have distinctive sounds once you get to know them. Also, if you learn the extensions from models -- music you already know -- it makes it easier to recognize them -- e.g. the first note of the melody on the bridge of "I got rhythm" is the 9th of the underlying dominant chord.*
There are some moves you can recognize pretty easily as well, like Stewart's chromatic descending passage, or a chromatic descent from the root of a minor, like the beginning of Emmons' version of "Here's that Rainy Day".
I often relate pitches not to the root of the chord but the tonic of the song or passsage -- like what Ian Rae was talking about. That way there are fewer things to try and recognize. With "Here's that Rainy day" (this version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O28cI1B17c )you might think of the A section as starting with 4 bars in bVI (Db, with a #4 quality over the Fm chromatic walkdown at the beginning) & 4 bars in I (F). It is a lot easier to relate pitches to Db for 4 bars and F for 4 bars than to change your frame of reference everytime there is a different chord. (Or, even easier, 4 bars in i (Fm) with some chromatic inflections & 4 bars in I (F maj)
Like everything else in music it takes practice, there is no on-off switch, you can better at it but there will always be something else to trip you up.
BTW thanks for giving "Here's that Rainy day" as an example, great song & great performance. Now you've got me working on it on C6 neck.
*That is, dominant-type chord in a circle fifths - in relation to the tonic, the first chord in the bridge of "I got rhythm" is III7. |
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