The Steel Guitar Forum

Please forgive me for my ignorance here as I am pretty new to this. I wonder what the truth to this tone thing is all about. Can the guitar make that much of a difference?

It seems that most are built about the same way and look about the same. It just seems to me that most of the"tone" would come from the players skill and the electronics (i.e. pick-ups, amps, etc) and not the actual brand of guitar.

I do not want to open a can of worms on this but it was a thought that crossed my mind.

Bob Kononiuk

<SMALL>I do not want to open a can of worms</SMALL>

Too late!

As close as we can get to a consensus, TIMBRE is the inherent "sound" of the guitar, the result of overtones dues to construction, materials, manufacturing process, age, etc. etc. TONE is what comes out of the amp, which is a composite of the timbre of the instrument, player technique, amp settings, room characteristics, etc. The degree to which any characteristic affects the tone is usually the debate. The greatest players get great TONE on any guitar through any amp in any setting (all within reason, of course). A lesser player (which is basically 99% of us) who is striving for great tone will often be more reliant on the TIMBRE of the guitar to help them.

I think I can reseal that can of red wigglers with a quote from Jerry Byrd:

"If you are a good player, it doesn't matter what kind of guitar you have; and if you are not a good player, then it doesn't matter what kind of guitar you have".

Of course you must consider that this is a quote from the "Master of Touch and Tone" not from the "master of how much hardware one can juggle".

Rick

I was a bit surprised to hear EXACTLY the same discussion on NPR the other day. A violin maker was explaining that the best players can get a good/great sound out of any instrument (as Jeff says, within REASON), but the difference is that a really great instrument requires much less work and concentration to get that great sound. I've heard Buddy Emmons say the same thing, relative to the Counterforce 'crowbar' mechanism on the Legrande III. If you're not fudging the bar by a few millimeters and can relax in the knowledge that you can spend your energy on what notes to play rather than little technical corrections you have to make you will play better.

I honestly believe that the difference among many of the all-pull guitars produced today is very small. I hear something special in most push-pulls I've played and heard. The difference is very important to some and not so important to others. To many, having to work a bit harder to get THAT tone is worth the convenience of tunable splits, easier and more adjustable action, and the other benefits of a modern all-pull guitar.

One conclusion that I have reached is that even the best players have days when they don't feel they sounded their best -- and most listeners scarcely notice. We tend to make a big deal out of some pretty subtle differences in tone, but that's why we're steel players.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

"If you are a good player, it doesn't matter what kind of guitar you have; and if you are not a good player, then it doesn't matter what kind of guitar you have".


This is the most significant statement on tone I have ever read..

For the past several years while hanging out in the forums I have read countless posts both here and on the other forum about the best tone, and which Instrument is best to offer the best tone..blah blah blah..

If we all spent half as much time practicing as we do trying to achieve the ultimate ,approved, most voted on, you've tried the rest now try the best...tone...

well you get my point...

DO some Steels sound different?, yes..thank god..are they all pretty much fine quality Instruments..? yes ..thank God once again..

Brand X -PP and the best amp money could buy still ain't gonna cut it if you can't play intro's and endings...

Oh my..I play a Carter..in some circles this is a no no...

tp<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 28 July 2003 at 09:28 AM.]</p></FONT>

Tone shmone!

When Tommy plays different steels, the tone seems to never change from one to the next. Sounds like it has more to do with the driver than the vehicle.

'It' is MANY THINGS. The timbre of the guitar is only one. Some people consider that thing very important, others don't understand what all the fuss is about. Like Bobbe Seymour says, if you can't hear the difference, don't worry about it (but we'll never teach you the official push-pull handshake).

I usually sound pretty much the same on different guitars as well (or so I've been told), but like I said above, how much work it takes to get that sound is important to me. I'll take a guitar that gives it to me easy any day (and I currently have two of them).

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 28 July 2003 at 12:25 PM.]</p></FONT>

When this was being beat to death ad infinitum the last time, somebody made the comment that even a bad steel guitar tone sounds better than anything else. When you're listening to a modern country song, aren't you just waiting through the fiddle player sawing away and the shrieky fuzztone guitar, hoping there'll be a steel break? My two years of playing and listening to steel has made it hard for me to even like most standard guitar tones, with the exception of the masters like Eric Johnson, Steve Morse, Santana and Beck. It seems like good tone is something that happens when the player cares enough to explore all the variables thoroughly and figure out how to get what they want.

Not everybody has as good an ear for tone or it is just subjective. What I mean is one guy will say it sounds great while another will say it falls short of good tone. I think some people have better ears than others for tone, tuning, you name it. The guitar is the main difference I think. The rest is just color. If the guitar doesn't make the difference then listen to an Emmons p/p and any other guitar and then tell me that. I have to agree with Larrys comments about most all-pull guitars.

Bob, you'll find that most players are pretty much at odds where tone is concerned. My own observation is that there are several "camps" of players that strongly favor one particular brand's sound, be it Emmons, Sho~Bud, Fender, Bigsby, etc.. My own opinion (which, I must admit, isn't shared by a lot of players) is that the beginner will find little benefit searching for the best "tone" until he becomes reasonably proficient on the instrument. It's strictly a "percentages thing", to me.

If you play around the 30%-50% level (where, I feel, the vast majority of us are) the extra 2% or 3% "tone advantage" that a certain instrument might give would probably not be noticed by anyone other than yourself. On the other hand, if you are at the 90% level, then a certain instrument that gives a few percent better tone may set you apart from the crowd (your peers).

I liken it to your average when you were at school. If your average was 50, and passing was 70, then an extra few points might have made you feel good, but it really wouldn't have <u>done</u> you any good.

<font size=2>I'm sure we'll hear from a lot of players who think they're at the "68% level" now! </font>

I'll put it another way. I played a few different steels lately.
Same player, bar and picks in most cases.
The tone was different on each set up.
But the tone was good, if not great every note, and to my liking each time.

So there is player technique creating the best tone for a given instruments inherent sonarity.

My best guess on Tommy White sounding good on several different steels is two part.
1.) supurb technique on all steels.
2.) a personal preference for amp choices and settings to get his prefered sound out of different steels.

But I also think he changes steels because he likes and HEARS a variety of tones in the different steels. Otherwise why not just use one. Adding he might also be liking different copedents for a change from time to time too.

Tommy is this so?<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 28 July 2003 at 02:53 PM.]</p></FONT>

David,
As usual, you said a mouthfull. Very incisive comment about getting the sound. Some musicians don't play an amplifier very well. Dialing in your sound is a critical skill to master. You have to play BOTH the guitar and the amplifier (and whatever else you use). I've watched Buddy Emmons do it many times and after about half a minute he's got it. I'm down to about half a set, but I'm still working on it.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

I love Jerry Byrd to pieces. But I will tell him there is NO way he is going to get the same sound out of a multikord (not using pedals) as he did his prewar Rick. NO way!

It is simply wrong to say that a player sounds the same on any guitar regardless of what it is. An older MSA DOES sound much different than a P/P Emmons with the SAME player playing one than the other one.

ANY one just about can hear the difference. Some will prefer the sound of the MSA; yet others will prefer the sound of the Emmons. But just about any one who is honest will say they do NOT sound the same. Even with the same player.

While I picked two guitars whose sounds are inherrently worlds apart (to make a point), most instruments sound different (same player) to a more or lessor degree. Although a few sound very much alike.

I can tell when Tom Brumley is playing his Anapeg versus his Mullen in a heartbeat. Same player! How many times have I heard greats and not so greats say words to the affect,

"I wish I had never traded that "X" instrument. It had the best tone I ever got!"

There is an incredible difference in the sound of a Fender non pedal steel over an old Gibson lap steel. The same goes for a true Dobro (resonphonic cones) versus a non resophonic instrument.

One could go on and on. But it is just silly to say again and again that a given player gets the same sound on any guitar. The facts belie this every time.

Buddy Emmons DOES sound like Buddy on anything he plays, BUT he sounds different on certain guitars versus others. The "blade" (as he calls it), absolutely gives him one of the best tones I have ever heard. His tone on the Ray Price "Time" is THE best I have ever heard him get.

And this same thing can be said for just about any player out there.

I will retract all the above the day that Paul Franklin will sound the exact same on his present Fanklin guitar versus a 1950's Fender 400!



carl

I have a theory:
Different steels sound different.
Different amps sound different.
Different steels sound different through different amps.
The same steel sounds different through the same amp at different occations.
The same steel sounds different through the same amp at the same occation with different players.
The same steel sounds different through the same amp with differeent volume pedals.
My MSA sounds better with new strings than Paul Franklins Franklin does with dead strings, at least if Paul is playing them both.
Paul Franklins Franklin wouldn't sound as sweet as usual if i played it. Especially not with old strings!
A Maverick doesn't sound too bad. Neither does a Cater Starter.(But they doesn't sound the same! Not even through different amps!!)
A Sho-Bud through a Hilton through a Pro-fex through a Twin, sounds different from a Zumsteel through a Goodrich through a Session 500. (Add to that some differences in fingerpicks!)
All steels sound terrible when they're not in tune.
But when you learn to play them, they all do sound pretty good, (in different ways of course), and if we all could agree to that maybe we could live happily ever after.

Uffe

Hey Ulf: My thoughts exactly. I rather play a cheap guitar throught a great amp than the best guitar through a cheap amp. Plug a Les Paul into a Gorilla amp and a Silvertone into a Fender Twin and see which one sounds the best. Call me ignorant or whatever but noone will ever convience me that the Electronics are'nt 90% of the battle.TONE IS IN THE HANDS---bulls--t!

Mr. Dixon, you took the words out of my mouth. ZB Custom and Sho-Buds rule!<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 28 July 2003 at 08:48 PM.]</p></FONT>

Carl and Ulf.........well stated. Actually everyone made valuable contributions.
My OLD RICK BAKELITES sound fantabulous when only a simple open chord is rolled and amplified thro' my new little old Harmony 8 inch amp. No soul or "hands" influence here.
The amp seems to convey the sounds of this little amp and together they are a winning combination. I've encountered numerous combo's of amps and guitars and have found that no matter what I might try, the cheapo's still sounded like crap. I often could make them sound "better" but cheap sounding........was still there. Strings, I feel, have a lot to do with that.
Like one of you mentioned.....a low time beginner should concentrate on learning proper technique and developing playing skill. TONE will come in its time. Then, is the time, to start looking for an upgrade.
PRICE DOES NOT always dictate quality sound/tone.

If you had a caddillac rig, it will do you no good without the time factor. Even with all the modern technology of teaching aids at your finger-tips, there remains the time factor. With all the variables involved in playing pedal steel, there remains the time factor. Through much time spent behind a pedal steel guitar, the result of tone will come from the equation of TIME. You MUST do the time. Every player through TIME develops their own technique and style. We don't all play the same axe or have the same amp or effects. The Time Factor=TONE. As for the Guitar itself, "A good one always helps"

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Mullen D-10 royal
Nashville 1000
Tele plus, Martin HD-28
65 Fender Twin

"Pick one for Jesus"

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Greely Baggett on 28 July 2003 at 10:30 PM.]</p></FONT>

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum6/HTML/003683.html

Uffe

I like the tone on my old Country LP's of Hank Williams, Hank Thompson, Lefty, etc. better than the newer country stuff. I don't think the steelers hands then are any different than the steelers of today. I'm begining to think it was the smaller tube amps they used and playing up the neck more.

Wow!! Lots of input here. Thanks guys. It seems to me that there is a lot of varied opinions here but overall the tone is not so much in the guitar (the timbre is) but more in the hands of the players and the electronics. (with the exception somewhat in the p-p emmons )

So in choosing a steel to buy I should not worry so much as to if zum, sho-bud, mullen, etc has a better "tone" then the other. I probaly need to get a guitar that feels the most comfortable, invest in a good amp, and develop my own "tone" since the guitar is not as big of a factor as some make it out to be.

Correct?


Bob Kononiuk

No, not correct. You are either not listening, or are wasting everyone's time here. The brand of guitar does make a difference in the way you sound, along with the pickup, amp, and accesories. Get it? <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 29 July 2003 at 09:59 AM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 29 July 2003 at 10:01 AM.]</p></FONT>

I don't know Bob.

This discussion (take this with a grain of salt, as I don't know what the heck I'm talking about compared to the folks above) has been rehashed endlessly... search for "Tone" in the subject line of the posts, and you'll go blind with eye strain reading all the stuff you find in the Forum archives...

The most basic communication breakdown is the following: "Good Tone is in the player" comes down to part of the puzzle... a given guitar may sound "good" to me, and not to someone else... but they will definitely sound DIFFERENT. That's not bad vs. good, it's just that the Sho-Bud Crossover I started on sounded different from my MCI, which sounds different from a push-pull that belonged to someone that I got to fool around with a little.

For me, it's not an option, but if it is at all possible, try to lay your hands on as many different makes as you can... but only once you know you play enough to tell the difference. Get something to work with for now... and then taste test as you go for the flavour you love. I might like chocolate, you might like vanilla... or Snozzleberry for all I know; one is not BETTER objectively.

Whew, sorry to run on.

• First: get a workable instrument
• Second: practice like crazy
• Third: practice even more
• ....
• nth: figure out which instrument is the right one for you.

Have fun with it, most of all