Bs to C#s + Bs to Bbs = C.. NOT

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 3 Jun 2003 3:38 pm

Can't get this E9 change to come up acurate.
P1 B's to C# fine
LKV Bs to Bb fine
Both together is way high of C

I can make LKV usefull by radical detuning, but then it's only usefull for this change

Sho-Bud Pro-II and sugestions

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 3 Jun 2003 3:52 pm

With a modern (triple/double, triple/triple) changer you can add a rod going from the lever to the raise side of the 5th string changer and get a tunable split. But if you've got an old style 'Bud changer then I'd guess you're out of luck. It's not an option on my Carter U-12 because I've run out of raises on 5. I've had to choose which matters more to me and the C note is my choice. In my case the Bb is close enough for some applications but that's just good luck.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 3 Jun 2003 6:27 pm

That's what 'tunable splits' are all about. The method Jon describes is one solution. A setscrew drilled and tapped through the end of the changer contacting the lower finger is another typical solution offered on other new-design all-pull guitars. You and I are in the same boat on the split with your Bud and my old Emmons. Learn to half-pedal your A pedal accurately to get the C. It CAN be done.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 3 Jun 2003 6:45 pm

Hey Donald,
I don't know how old your 'bud is, but my old '77 single 12 did this change pretty close to perfect. What gauge strings do you use? On mine I used an .018 on the 5th string and a .038 on the 10th. My bellcranks only had the two positions on them so the raises were on the short pull closest to the cross shaft and the lowers were on the 2nd position away from the rod. Sometimes just a little string gauge thing can help in this. My current BMI didn't pull true with the 18 on the 5th string so I changed it to a 17 and it's just fine now.

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 4 Jun 2003 1:06 am

Yes Jerry has the answer for ya right there.
If you use a .018 on the 24" scale...it will work right since you don't have a tunable split.

Also if you want your 3rd and 6th string to raise together...String guage is important yet again....
Actually my string guages in my Artist Series from Jagwire...deal with all these issues and is why they are the perfect string guages for the 24" scale(Shobuds;Marlens and a few others).
Ricky

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 4 Jun 2003 1:33 am

Ricky, you're up early for Texas.. you a milkman on ths side?

I have the Tommy White E9's there now.
But I just got some Jagwire E9's from b0b with an 018 and 038 fir 5 & 10
I get either set of raises in good tune now
but not the coombination.

So looks like I need two tuneable splits.
I have tried different puller hols for the rods, no luck.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 04 June 2003 at 02:50 AM.]

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 4 Jun 2003 4:59 am

My 'Pro III' wouldn't do it, so I bought a LeGrande. BUT - I can't express how much I regret selling that Sho-Bud - I should have learned to accurately half-pedal 'on the fly' (I have done since). Although then I wouldn't have had all the pleasure of owning an Emmons

!

I had a ZB before the Sho-Bud - even though it wasn't supposed to 'split', by sheer good fortune, my one was right in tune on these pulls - maybe THAT's the guitar I should have kept...

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 4 Jun 2003 7:20 am

Hey David; nope not a Milkman...ha...just another musician coming home from a late gig...
So the .018 don't work??? I guess the difference in how we all tune may be the clincher....STay with it.....have fun.
Ricky

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 4 Jun 2003 7:36 am

Ricky 40-45 cents high is a bit wide of fun unfortunatly.
It's not a case of choice of tuning, it's just way wide of the mark.
(corrected cents)[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 04 June 2003 at 11:08 AM.]

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 4 Jun 2003 7:48 am

Actually, C natural at 12 cents high is about right for the way I tune my E9.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 4 Jun 2003 7:59 am

If you're tuning it as the mi third relative to A, just intonation dictates +16cents. On my guitar with split tuning I end up about where EB does -- 10 or 12 sharp. It's just what sounds right to me.

Just out of curiosity, Earnest (and others), where do you tune your A#? JI says +31 for a b5 but I don't go nearly that far since there are other uses (like the third of the F#7 chord in open pos which wants to be -14 or so) AND since you don't really notice the deviation as much in a dissonant chord like a 7b5 or diminished chord. Just curious -- another of those compromises.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 04 June 2003 at 09:02 AM.]

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 4 Jun 2003 8:16 am

My theory for E9 tuning is:
<pre>
E# -5x
A# -4x
D# -3x
G# -2x
C# - x
F# 0
B + x
E +2x
A +3x
D +4x
G +5x
C +6x
</pre>
where x is about 2 cents.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 4 Jun 2003 9:04 am

IF one tunes straight ET, the split will ALWAYS be way sharp. This is why all "splitting" compensators have to bring the lower back up, because the split tuning flattens the note because of the resultant sharped "split".

Now, if one tunes JI; or somewhere between JI and ET, splits can fall anywhere (before compensation).

The reason the natural split is always sharp on straight ET, is because of the logarithmic scale we use in "western music". It is the same reason that no two frets are equally spaced.

I do not see how string gauges would change this. Not saying they cant, Just dont understand it.

God bless you all,

carl

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 4 Jun 2003 10:04 am

Hey Carl ! Nice to see you here !!

I should amend that not 12 cents it's more like 45 cents I read the wrong part of the small meter. (corrected above too)
It feels more like a 1/4 tone a bit below 1/2 a 1/2 step and just ruded as...

It seems much more a mechanical issue that a JI tuning issue.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 04 June 2003 at 11:12 AM.]

RON PRESTON · Post by **RON PRESTON** » 4 Jun 2003 11:29 am

Hey, Bro. Carl.............Sure good to "See" and "Hear" you back on the Ol' Forum.
As always, Your words of wisdom are so helpful to so many of these guys that might be "New" to the tuning thing. Not to leave you other guys out, Good to "see" and "hear" your words of wisdom also. You take care of yourself now, Carl, and listen to the "Doc", OK?
God Bless.........

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 4 Jun 2003 1:05 pm

Carl I'm glad you doing better pal...good to see ya on here.
The diameter of a string that is larger takes less tension to pull to pitch...therefore the travel on the raising part of the finger is less and that is what will give the knee lever lowering it more room to lower while it's raised.....and let it go flat moreso easier...."gosh that doesn't make any since does it"?? ha...Ok David...I didn't mean to come off like it's fun at all...ah...as I say "have fun" to everything I say anyway...as it's my goal in life

..LOL>
My B's are at 441 on ShoBuds that have a small drop...and my C# note is at 339...and with that 018 on there...every shobud I've played(probably 50 of them) go to a C note that is intune with the E note and the Bb note is in tune with the Eb note on the other knee lever(which is 339)....and that's how I tune it....
I do hope that helps...
Good luck.

Ricky [This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 04 June 2003 at 02:07 PM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 4 Jun 2003 1:59 pm

Ricky that has helped some.. but I still cringe a bit.
But thanks I will keep hackin at it.

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 5 Jun 2003 9:43 am

I tune my B's to 440 and my Bb lowers to 438 and it works out just fine and very usuable either lowered by themselves or against the raise to get the C. I think that sometimes the brand of string makes a difference too. I remember when SIT strings first came on the market I got a set from Blackie Taylor to try out. I still had my 'bud then and put them on but the raises required more travel, especially the 3rd string so I went back to my good old trusty Ernie Ball's which I've used for many years.

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.