Who out there reads music

Wayne Franco · Post by **Wayne Franco** » 9 May 2003 2:25 pm

I'm particularly interested who reads the written note (not tab) and translates it to the steel guitar. I do a little and it is getting easier as I do more of it. Seems like a skill that will take a long time to just sit down and play the "head" of a song from sight. I saw a jazz trio who had been hired from a musicians union to play a wedding. They had never met each other but played an entire gig starting the songs from fake book music with the chords and basic melody. What a cool thing to be able to do.

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · Post by **Dr. Hugh Jeffreys** » 9 May 2003 2:32 pm

Hello Franco: I'm puttting the finishing touches on my book/CD's: Sight Reading for Steel Guitarists, based on C6. One publisher has ask me to expand/modify it for all melodic instruments--which I intend to do. It will be a First of its kind, using saccadic eye training. Stay tuned for release date. It is designed to help in speedreading and save time in the process. www.steelguitarbyhughjeffreys.com Hugh

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 9 May 2003 3:11 pm

The Doctor of Steel wrote:

One publisher has ask me to expand/modify it for all melodic instruments--which I intend to do.

Don't Do It! We really need a book that is specific to the pedal steel. As soon as you start watering it down for other instruments, it will be virtually useless for steel. It's happened before - ask Mike Perlowin!

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
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C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 9 May 2003 3:21 pm

I used to sight read anything put in front of me. That was years ago and long since passed.

But the theory training was well worth it. Now I jsut use it to learn the lead line and chord so I can add the harmony as I wish. That is IF the sheet music has the guitar chord symbols. If not I can get somewhat lost.

carl

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · Post by **Dr. Hugh Jeffreys** » 9 May 2003 4:15 pm

For Bobby and C. Dixon - Bobby, I assure you it will not be watered down (I have not signednor made a commitment to anyone, and I may promote it as I have my album). All that will be necessary is to leave out the sections for steel, and insert suitable material for melodic/harmonic instruments. This work is a speed-type course designed to shorten the time required to learn speed reading. I project that it can be completed within a span of 3-4 months. I also include portions of my book: Speed Reading and Vision Training, which parallels speed reading music; speed reading music can be learned faster (with my method) because the student must identify only 12 characters (notes in our system), instead of many words. The most important aspect of my method is SACCADICS---which I have not seen in any other work on sight reading. This innvolves developing one's ability to recognize characters (notes) in microseconds. (It also works in the military for fighter pilots). C. Dixon - guitar chords/symbols on sheet music is for the birds; they are seldom correct. I always read the piano voicings. A little advice to any other writer: I have written things in the past (i.e., medical papers, etc) which "publishers" have asked to "review"--to my sorrow, they paraphrased my work, copyrighted it and published it in their name. For what it's worth. Hugh

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 9 May 2003 4:21 pm

I have a very useful book called "Hearing and Writing Music" by Ron Gorow. It is non-instrument specific, but relies on singing the pitches on the page and then relating that to your instrument. Pedal steels, guitars, saxophones, violins, etc. all play notes within the normal human vocal range. A few billion years of evolution have ensured that those notes in the range which can be sung are the most appealing to the human ear. It doesn't matter if your voice sounds like a frog fart (I sure hope so, here), it's just a matter of locking in the pitches in your brain to the little bugs written on the page, rather than to a particular finger positioning or box pattern. Easier said than done, but at least I know what to work on for the rest of my life.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 9 May 2003 4:59 pm

"C. Dixon - guitar chords/symbols on sheet music is for the birds; they are seldom correct."

may be very true. But a 1000 times MORE correct than if left up to me.

God bless all like you (and many others) that know what they should be. Would to God I did. But that is NOT one of my talents.

carl

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 9 May 2003 11:05 pm

I read much better in bass clef F than trebel clef G, but read both.
I have a jazz gig at a music school next friday. 2 hour show after 50 students play.

We have electric violin, sax, drums, guitar, a pianist I haven't met, and me on upright and 6 string bass. No rehearsal at all.
We decide on a set list while the students are playing and then just go do it... as the example of how it's done. Should be fun good players all.
Today I go to a traditional music festival in the Minervois / Montagne Noir regeon. I will play with a friend, and whom ever we find in the afternoon, and at the ball in the evening with a band I have never met.
Some with charts, some just ear work.

Hugh, to some extent Bobby is right. The idea of a huge book makes less sense than a PSG specific book. There is more of a need here.
Do another for the other insruments.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 10 May 2003 at 12:13 AM.]

Bill Fulbright · Post by **Bill Fulbright** » 10 May 2003 3:20 am

I can read as well, and like Carl, I believe getting the theory was so important.

I would have to work on it for steel, but in the end, it would probably force me to learn more of the notes.

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Bill Fulbright
Mullen D-10 8x7; Gibson ES-165; Peavey Vegas 400;
ICQ# 2251620 My Music Site

Mike Delaney · Post by **Mike Delaney** » 10 May 2003 5:02 am

I believe,kind of like the commercial says, that reading is fundamental. I'm not necessarily talking about sight reading, per se, but the ability to sit down with a lead sheet and figure out the melody in a reasonably short period of time.

I can't sight read on a steel at all, as I can on other instruments, but I think this is because a great deal of attention has to be devoted to intonation/bar position.

Reading notes is simply a tool of communication. I like the steel TAB that has the written notes above it. Then I know what it's supposed to sound like by the notes, and how to play it by the TAB.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 10 May 2003 6:50 am

I read music on piano and sax, but not really for guitar or steel. If the music is written in the key of C (or Am), I can very slowly pick out the notes in any key on steel, because the bar is like a capo that allows you to approach any key as if it were C. But frankly it is easier just to read the music on piano, then find it by ear on the steel.

Learning to read music is difficult and time consuming on any instrument. Children do it best, but their instruction usually is given over a period of years. Every time I have started working on this for guitar or steel it has become so time consuming and tedious I have always decided my time is better spent learning to play by ear, the way most popular music is created and played on these instruments.

A major problem is that on steel a given note or chord can be found in so many different places. For this reason you really need the tab below the music notation. Some of Doug Jernigan's instruction material is like that and this helps me immensely in understanding what the tab is supposed to sound like. I don't read tab very well either - again it's usually easier just to listen to a CD over and over and pick it out by ear.

The biggest problem with playing everything by ear is the difficulty of working out and memorizing very long pieces. Most popular music has repeating verses that minimize this problem. But without being able to read and write music for the instrument, the long complicated and nonrepeating passages of much classical music seem beyond possibility in real time. They invented written music for a good reason.

It is interesting that people who learn their instrument and music reading at the same time, and always play written music have a very difficult time learning to play by ear. I have watched many very proficient classically trained musicians struggle to play very bad popular music by ear. Playing by ear and improvisation seem impossible to them. Ideally we would all have balanced training in reading music and playing by ear. A lot of jazz musicians get pretty good at both. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 10 May 2003 at 07:52 AM.][This message was edited by David Doggett on 10 May 2003 at 07:58 AM.][This message was edited by David Doggett on 10 May 2003 at 08:00 AM.]

Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 10 May 2003 8:19 am

I read but... Super Slow.I would be kicked out of the studio if the situation demanded otherwise.
Music reading is the same as anything else, once you have acquired the skill, the more you practice the better you get. In my case I use my music reading skills to facilitate rather than dominate my playing. Only when I do not know the song, the exact notes and the chord structure will I turn to the music.
I find the chord symbols helpfull and if they are not right my musical sense will tell me that right away.
I do find Dr.Hugh Jeffery's method of approach interesting. The "SACCADICS" or microsecond recognition principle should work fine.
You are still left with translating it to whatever tuning(s) you use. That's the killer! I usually use music for the purpose above noted after which I transcribe to my tuning of choice. It can be a long process but it gets me closer to the truth so to speak.

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<A HREF="http://www.clictab.com/royt/tabmenu.htm ... abmenu.htm
</A> [This message was edited by Roy Thomson on 10 May 2003 at 09:21 AM.]

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 10 May 2003 8:32 am

When I write tab, I always include the notes and chords. After a while, you will begin to see the relationship between the tab you are playing and the notes. Pretty soon, you'll be able to get along without the tab. Then you'll be playing "music"!
Erv

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 10 May 2003 9:08 am

If you don't use it, you lose it. Seriously, I've known the basics of reading music since I was a kid, but I was much better at it when I had a piano or organ in the house. There isn't much music written for steel, and physically it's harder to read when playing steel because I have to look at my hands often.

When figuring out written music for pedal steel, I often mark it up (in pencil) with fret positions. That simplifies reading it the second time through. Memorizing the notes available at each fret comes with practice. The more you read, the easier it gets.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
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Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · Post by **Dr. Hugh Jeffreys** » 10 May 2003 9:57 am

Look at all the time you devote to tab learning? --when you can learn notation just as fast. In the study of classical guitar, technique is taught along with notation; I use the same system: Fingers of the right hand are labeled above the notes: ph (thumb), i, m, a, and c (small finger); strings are labeled below the notes: 1,2,3,etc. The tuning should not be a problem; I think most all are familiar with C6. An exercise (in my book) using one string at a time per day for 10 days will firmly place all strings and their notations in mind. It's a simple bite-ata-time process, at the same time-not a long, drawn out task. Hugh

Barbara Hennerman · Post by **Barbara Hennerman** » 10 May 2003 11:36 am

I learned to read years ago. I can't see it anymore and really found my ear and tabs to be more useful to me. I can't really see the tabs anymore either, so rely heavily on my ears. I believe the theory was well worth it. It helps me put things together now. (chord-wise) Don't know ... just for what it's worth, I think everyone should learn it but what do I know?

Smiley Roberts · Post by **Smiley Roberts** » 10 May 2003 8:43 pm

Someone,once,asked Jimmy Day if he could read music. He replied with,something to the effect of,"Yeah,but not enough to hurt my playin'. "

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mm if it ain't got that twang.
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Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 10 May 2003 10:51 pm

This topic has been dicussed here a lot in past years. The biggest problem with reading music on pedal steel (and on regular guitar) is the multiple locations for each note. Middle C is probably available in 10 or more locations on your PSG fretboard, given the intricate setup of pedals and knee levers... unlike a piano, where middle C is in 1 location.

The best one could hope for IMHO would be to memorize as many notes as possible within a limited position, using pedals and levers. From there you could try playing those notes in other positions, using other levers and pedals, to find the smoothest way. I can play from sheet music on E9 if I have a couple of minutes to look it over. Sight reading on PSG... that's a different story.

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My Site - Instruction | Doug's Free Tab | Steels and Accessories

Post by **Joey Ace** » 11 May 2003 3:31 am

I read a bit, due to pre-PSG musical training.

Dr. Hugh,
Since the Steel Market (especially C6) is so small, perhaps a self-published book would be best.

The publisher can still be supplied with a modified/expanded text for all instruments.
Just change it enough so it's two different books.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 11 May 2003 6:15 am

I think just as important as the positions is the "timing". The problem with tab is how to indicate the timing for each note. If you don't know the song, you're kind of in the dark. If you can read notation, you eliminate the problem.
Erv

Wayne Franco · Post by **Wayne Franco** » 11 May 2003 7:45 am

GREAT Replys folks...Thanks to the good Dr. for the input. I would like to summerize some of my thoughts on the feed back here.

Doug is certainly right about the multiple positions to play the notes. I was recently given some sheet music in my class that didn't have a key signiture. I think it was the vibes set of music. It was hell trying to find a place to conveniently play the notes until I learned it was basically Bb blues scale based. For me key signiture and a knowledge of the type of scale the song is based on is critical at my level of skill. As far as the chords go the piano chords are a great help to improvize over. Example..a chord progression of Fm7..Em7..Db..Eb...is all a Ab maj scale. (All the things you are)first 5 bars)so I think the chords are critical for purpose of improvising. I recently had to write out a verse and chorus of a recorded jazz solo. It took me the whole weekend to get it close to correct buy I sure knew it well when I was finished! In fact i dreaming about it. My Band in a box program was critical. I kept messing with it until it sounded right. May be cheating but so is "spell checker" The idea for me is it is helping me see and heard the notes better when I see them written.

Wayne Franco · Post by **Wayne Franco** » 11 May 2003 7:51 am

Until some of this computer help came out I have always wished I had studied piano so I could hear what it sounded like then take it to the steel. Bet that is ac ommon "wish" among us guys who never aquired the skill.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 11 May 2003 8:29 am

"Yeah, but not enough to hurt my playin'."

This phrase has been attributed to many great players. The most notable one was Jerry Bryd. If he is not the very first to have said it, he is very close to the first one; since I have it in print from about 50 yrs ago.

On this forum alone I have heard it said by at least a half a dozen posters.

Even Jerry said it as a joke. I feel confident most of those who have been quoted, meant it similarly. The fact is, learning to read helps ANY musician regardless. There is NO virtue in ignorance.

Knowledge has NO equal in ANY endeavor. I have always felt that "tab" was going all the around one's fist to get to your thumb. If you can learn to read tab, and play, you can play MORE by learning music.

I will grant this one caveat. IF one wants to copy exactly a given lick, then tab does have a real place. But beyond that reading music has it hands down.

Sure it takes an effort to learn the basics, but once learned, there is no measure to how helpful it can be. Also, the fact that middle C can be found at dozens of places on a PSG, does not follow that a given chord using middle C can be found All over the place. And herein lies the secret.

As any violin or chello (etc) player knows, it is NOT where a given note is; rather it is WHERE that note (or notes) is between the one(s) before it and the one(s) after it.

This becomes part and parcel when one learns to read music. For if one knows the notes in a C chord or an Eb9b5, etc, the strings, pedals and knee lever changes become intuitive in short order.

In other words; any musician who reads does NOT need the music to tell them WHERE to get a particular note (or notes); or what pedal and or knee lever to engage; rather his brain will decipher that by the score (musical flow and chordal structure).

A child quickly abandons "training wheels". IMO such should be the case with "tab" and the likes of "steven's" bars.

May God bless all mothers on this precious day,

carl

Wayne Franco · Post by **Wayne Franco** » 11 May 2003 8:56 am

My mistake on the second chord I noted in my post...the second chord is Bb minor 7, not Em. Thought I'd catch that before I get chewed up for total incompetance. : )

Wayne Franco · Post by **Wayne Franco** » 11 May 2003 9:03 am

OK...I don't visualize well on the computer. I had to sit down and really look at it. the chords are Fm7, Bbm7, Eb7, Ab, Db7 and everything before the next chord C does fit nicely with an Ab major scale....whew