The Steel Guitar Forum

I'm considering a D12 keyless Williams. I'd like to get opinions on the advantages and disadvantages of keyed vs keyless. I love my current D10 Williams but would like to extend the tuning on both necks. I've heard that keyless guitars minimize string hystereis but I have pitch return comps to solve that. They're obviously lighter. They're somewhat unconventional to my eye but if function is improved, I'm open to that.

I like keyless guitars even though some say they have drawbacks and the resale is less than a keyed guitar. I think they stay in tune and are much easier to change strings. Don't know about the double 12. That's just too much guitar for me. Even if I could play it, it would be heavier than most and not have much resale value. JMO

Keyless to the core!!!! (always been a little short on the "herd instinct")

A keyless guitar always brings back memories of my youth when we would have to cut the head off a chicken so we could have Sunday dinner.

The tone of a keyless guitar is more consistent from one string to the next because you don't have different keyhead harmonic resonances for each string. Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is a matter of individual preference. I have spent many hours behind both, including a keyed Williams D-10 and a keyless Williams D-12. I have no preference regarding keyhead tone - I like them both - but I do prefer the keyless when changing strings. It's just easier.

One thing about going from D-10 to D-12 is the tonal difference of the pickups. It's more pronounced than the keyhead tonal difference. For about 10 years I played a Sierra with the modular pickup system, and often changed pickups between songs. It accepted both 10- and 12-string pickups. The 10-string pickups always seem to have more "air" in them, probably because the same number of windings has a lower impedance. I've never played a 12-string that sounded as good to my ear as the same maker's 10-string guitar.

But again, tone is an individual preference. I'm just warning you not to expect a D-12 keyless Williams to sound exactly like your D-10. I did a lot of good recordings and performances on my D-12, and I did like the way it sounded. These days, I like my S-8 Desert Rose with a very low impedance Truetone pickup, but sometimes its keyhead resonance annoys me. I might like it more if it was keyless. But then, there are times when that same resonance surprises and delights me. That's why I say I have "no preference". Each guitar has its own sound. It is what it is.

I think that b0b's observations are pretty much spot on. I would also say that hysteresis is no better or worse with keyless - at least not in my experiance. I think that mostly happens at the changer end. Since the total string length is less on a keyless guitar the pulls are somewhat shorter. Having owned and loved both I honestly can't think of a really compelling reason to favor one over the other. Love the one your with!

A keyless tuner affords a shorter pedal/lever action. With a keyed tuner, you have the length of string behind the nut to contend with, especially on the 5th & 6th strings.
I put a keyless tuner on an old Sho~Bud and the 1st thing I noticed was I had to adjust those little white thingies on the end.

Erv, I put a keyless tuners on a Zum D-10 at one time. The holes in the body lined up perfect for the keyless. It did make the pedal travel much shorter and I couldn't tell any difference in tone of the guitar, if anything, was better and stayed in tune better. I finally took them off because they were sorta ugly on the black Zum. Still got the tuners somewhere. Think I got them from Charles Mcgoo, I think was his name.

I think that the hysteresis issue is related to the quality and lubrication of the roller nut, which makes less of a difference on keyless guitars. If a good roller nut is properly maintained, there is no difference in the amount of hysteresis between keyed and keyless guitars. Some keyless guitars don't even need a roller nut because the string length in the keyhead is so short.

Or indeed zero.

Henry Matthews wrote:Erv, I put a keyless tuners on a Zum D-10 at one time. The holes in the body lined up perfect for the keyless. It did make the pedal travel much shorter and I couldn't tell any difference in tone of the guitar, if anything, was better and stayed in tune better. I finally took them off because they were sorta ugly on the black Zum. Still got the tuners somewhere. Think I got them from Charles Mcgoo, I think was his name.

A pal of mine and fellow forumite is looking for a keyless tuner set up....if you dig that sucker up there's good chance he'd buy it from you.

Keyless guitars do have less hysteresis, and they break strings far less. Now, I've never lived with one long enough to really speak one way or the other, but it kinda bothers me that even after a half-century of them being around, it still seems that almost none of the big "pro" players really seem to prefer them?

I dunno...could it be they know something we don't?

Joe Wright plays a keyless. BJ Cole plays a keyless. I don't think there are any unknown factors, Donny. Some people just like bigger or more traditional-looking instruments.

I had a Williams keyless model 400 for a few years. The best feature for me was the compact body. It just takes up less room on the stage or in the studio.

The best feature for me was the compact body.

Sounds like a backhanded compliment

I'm with B0B on the pickup thing with 12 strings... I have 2 Williams guitars of the same vintage. One keyed S-10 and one keyless S-12 uni. It took a lot of experimenting with pickups to get the 12 where I wanted it, most of the pickups were on the dark side. Playability seems about the same. String changes on the keyless are easier. I think that I do prefer the keyless on the uni, as, on most guitars, the 12 string key head can get very long, with more string behind the key head than I would like.

I like Keyless but I don't really like the Keyless that requires a tool to tune the opens strings, so that is something to consider.
My Sierra S12U Keyless allows for very fine/micro tuning adjustments using your finges on the tuners.
My Kline requires an allen wrench to adjust the open strings, which is just a little bit inconvenient to my taste in Keyless.
I have never owned a GFI, but I have checked them out at Conventions, and I really like their Keyless system too, which you can tune by hand.
As I recall Williams Keyless requiers a tool to tune the open strings. I know they are a solid brand so I wouldn't kick one out of bed just because of the tuners.
But I like the Keyless that you can tune by hand.
On the pickups thing, I use a True-Tone 17.5Kohm for pretty much everything these days, but pickups sound so drastically different through different amps and depending on the volume pedal type/brand, and/or if you are using a Black Box or a Lil Izzy or some other buffered circuit, not to mention pickup height, guage of strings, how you strike the strings, brand/length of cable, etc.
With regard to Hysterisis, the test is, using a tuner, start with string-4-E tuned straight-up, lower string 4 to Eb, then release it back to E, and see how close the note returns to the original note. On a Keyed guitar it will always be sharp. On Keyless, not so much. Pedal feel is negligable imho, as it can be adjusted to taste on either, but, all things being equal, Keyless has a little edge.

Thanks for your input everyone. It's good to get info from players experienced with keyless guitars.

On a Williams, the tool you use to tune is the same common tool you use to tune the pedals. I never found it inconvenient to use. I used the Carl Williams "Big Tuning Wrench", which works on almost all modern pedal steels. One thing I liked about the Williams keyless design was that I could use my electric screwdriver with a standard nutdriver bit to wind new strings up to pitch. Saves a lot of time on a D-12!

b0b wrote: If a good roller nut is properly maintained, there is no difference in the amount of hysteresis between keyed and keyless guitars.

I think there would be hysteresis on a keyed guitar, even if the nut roller turns with no friction. Remember that when you lower a string, or release a raise, the part of the string that was bent over the roller has to straighten. That takes a moment, and the effect (hysteresis) is like friction in the nut.
The amount of hysteresis varies according to how much of the string is to the left of the nut. This is almost zero (negligible) on a keyless guitar.

Pete Burak wrote: My Kline requires an allen wrench to adjust the open strings, which is just a little bit inconvenient to my taste in Keyless.

I can see how that might be inconvenient, except for one thing: the Kline never goes out of tune.

Earnest Bovine wrote:The amount of hysteresis varies according to how much of the string is to the left of the nut. This is almost zero (negligible) on a keyless guitar.

Not in my experience. I have never encountered a keyless guitar with an imperceptible amount of hysteresis on the high E string. I've concluded that there are other forces at work besides the length of string in the keyhead.

Cabinet drop on my Williams model 400 keyless:

3 cents on high E string when P1 depressed
2 cents on high G# when P1 depressed
3 cents on low E when P1 depressed
3 cents on high G# when P3 depressed.

As far as hystereis, it was there and noticeable. I subconsciouly bump the Eb knee lever slightly after using pedal 3 to bring the E string back to it's "home" position. Also I bump the E to Eb knee lever constantly while tuning so that the open tuning is set where the knee lever actuation leaves it. These two actions make hystersis a non-factor on my guitars.


http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Williams/willy.html

Donny Hinson wrote:Keyless guitars do have less hysteresis, and they break strings far less. Now, I've never lived with one long enough to really speak one way or the other, but it kinda bothers me that even after a half-century of them being around, it still seems that almost none of the big "pro" players really seem to prefer them?

I dunno...could it be they know something we don't?

,,,,and let's not forget my friend, the late Tom Brumley,,,,like I said,,,keyless is not for the "herd followers",,,,I just can't imagine anyone playing one guitar over another "because Mr. Big does",,,,to each his own,,,,

b0b wrote:

Earnest Bovine wrote:The amount of hysteresis varies according to how much of the string is to the left of the nut. This is almost zero (negligible) on a keyless guitar.

Not in my experience. I have never encountered a keyless guitar with an imperceptible amount of hysteresis on the high E string. I've concluded that there are other forces at work besides the length of string in the keyhead.

What could it be? I guess that leaves the changer as the culprit.