LeGrande - Help! What's wrong?

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 16 May 2003 1:37 pm

My LGIII has, admittedly, been standing around for two weeks without being played (I was away), but when I sat down to steal some of Russ Hicks' licks on my return, I found that my 5th string 'lower' (RKL) is not fully returning. When I hit my 5th and 10th 'raise' pedal, it corrects it (the C#s to Bs return in tune, too), but the RKL will not come back to pitch!

Any ideas, please?

Thanks,

RR
PS: I'm panicking - I start a new show next week.....

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 16 May 2003 4:16 pm

Yes give a couple turns on the lower return spring screw just under the nylon tuners at the end plate.
Also drop you a bead of 3 and one oil down between the fingers and move them pedals and knees around a bit...your good to go.
Ricky

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 16 May 2003 5:25 pm

Gotta go along with Ricky on this one. Due to the very close tolerances of pieces that make up the changer, this is a common problem.

A drop or two of oil on the top of the changer then engaging the pedals and/or knee levers will do wonders for you.

Note: it may take a while for the oil to get down to the sticking finger. But it will in time.

God bless you in your quests,

carl

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 16 May 2003 5:26 pm

Thanks, Ricky
Larry Petree gave me similar advice, but I'm afraid it's not working - yet. Maybe when that oil works its way through it'll be better.

When you say a couple of turns, do you mean complete turns (360 degrees)? I can't help wondering why my guitar needs such drastic alteration all of a sudden - I've never touched those springs since I bought it nearly three years ago. That pull (and all the others) has always worked perfectly, and now it's returning a quarter-step (at least) flat after two weeks of not being played!

I appreciate the help.

RR

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 16 May 2003 7:00 pm

WEll actually give it one turn(360) and see if that does it...if not than 2 or even three turns.
There are a few reasons why that lower isn't returning.
Also if those springs haven't ever been tighted a little in those years since getting it..They should> as springs like anything else will loose their dexterity over time..
But mostly; that finger has some friction on it somewhere, as to why it's not coming back after lowering....as the only thing to pull it back is the spring...so either the dirt spec(s) or build up of grease/dirt whatever, in that piviot part of the finger is overwhelming the abilitly for that lower spring to pull it back in place? Or that finger is rubbing moreso against something...or the rod that pulls to lower it..>is rubbing against something on the return.
So those are the main reasons; and of course the tightening the spring thing is a quick easy fix and having a little more tension on that spring to pull that finger back; will most likely override the friction that there might be somewhere else in that explaination....yeee haaaa.
Ricky

Gino Iorfida · Post by **Gino Iorfida** » 16 May 2003 7:32 pm

I'm going with the dirt thing as well, seeing as it worked fine, and you let it sit for a few weeks, now its NOT working... sounds like some dirt worked it's way into things... try taking the string off and see how the finger moves... is it moving freely, or is it stiff? also check the roller at the nut end? a drop of oil there may do the trick.. try dumping a bit of zippo fluid throgh the changer around the finger for that string, let all the gunk come out, now reoil it, and work it a bit -- sometimes with the string off, and the return spring off etc, there's no tension on the mechanisms, and it will allow the gunk to be cleaned out, and the oil to work it's way back in better.... besides, it never hurts to change that 5th string

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 16 May 2003 9:44 pm

Great Gino Advice.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 16 May 2003 10:20 pm

Ricky, I don't think tightening the spring is the answer. If the spring tension is too low, then when Roger presses the A pedal, the lower segment would move also, which apparently isn't happening. I think it's a sticking rod, or tight knee lever problem.

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 16 May 2003 11:07 pm

The above stated is all good advice.As Richard mentioned check for crossbar drag.Your RKL crossbar.

With the warmer temperatures we are now having the spring may have a little less tension than it did when it was colder.However if you have not loosened the spring since you bought the guitar new.I would tighten it as a last resort. Because, every Legrande I've ever seen came from the factory with the springs a little tighter than they have to be.This is true with all makes of PSG's.The tighter the spring the harder the knee is to press when lowering a string.No big deal if you only have a couple of changes on the knee.But when you get up to around 4 changes per knee and several are whole tone changes.Every little bit helps.
Also sometimes a bellcrank can get a little sidways on the crossbar.This can cause a rod to bind or at least rub more than normal.Just my thoughts.------------bb<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 17 May 2003 at 12:21 AM.]</p></FONT>

Martin Weenick · Post by **Martin Weenick** » 17 May 2003 1:40 am

I have been through the "spring thing" with my LeGrande III while on the phone with Ron Lashley Jr. He recommended only turning the springs one quarter of a turn at a time. Also put a drop of oil on the spring where it goes on to the screw. They turn much easier. Also chech for a bell crank that may have turned sideways a little bit. This can put your pull rod in a bind. Hope that helps.

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Martin W. Emmons LG III 3/5 Peavy 1000

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 17 May 2003 3:10 am

Many thanks to all of you who have taken the trouble to reply (and to Larry P. who's e-mailed me directly).

I had a flash of deja vu last night! Why it didn't come to me immediately I can't imagine.....
I was doing a gig in Atlantic City in early-2000 playing my last Emmons (an LGIII S10 - also just over two years old at the time) when the same problem on the same two pulls (and only the 5th - not the 10th - string) occurred. The problem was so bad I called Jim Aycoth who invited me to bring the guitar to Burlington for immediate 'first-aid'. I drove overnight after the gig (I had the next night 'off') and was on their doorstep the next morning.

Ron Jr. worked on my guitar ALL DAY, finally giving up the struggle and completely replacing the whole ten-string changer! Some parts had 'welded' together even though I had lubricated it on a regular basis (though maybe not enough!) - I left 'Emmons' with a virtually-new guitar and wasn't charged a penny for the parts or Ron's time. I was very impressed.

Now it's happened again, and after a similar time period from 'new'. Logic tells me that the fault on my first LGIII was a 'one-off', as I've never read of any other similar cases in the Forum pages, but it's a little unsettling just the same!

This morning I will take off the string, turn the guitar upside-down and clean the gunk out if I can, and re-lubricate and re-assemble.

Here's hoping!

Thanks again, you guys, and I still feel pretty stupid about forgetting all about that other guitar.....

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Roger Rettig

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 17 May 2003 6:17 am

Roger, any chance your over lubing?Or using the wrong type oil??I oil my changers every one to two years max.Never had a problem.Would not think of oiling the changer of a guitar under 2 years old unless I played in a dust storm.Now the roller bridge is a different story.Maybe your just unlucky with guitars like I am with the stock market?

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 17 May 2003 6:31 am

I dunno, Bobby! Maybe I am unlucky - My guitars play occasional bad notes so you may have a point.

I use '3-in-1'. As for frequency of lubrication, I hear many varying thoughts on this. I do know when I took my 'sick' S10 to Emmons that time, they thought it was a little dry.

The roller at the nut was my first thought - it's moving freely.

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 17 May 2003 6:42 am

3-1 is a good choice.I'm with Ricky.If your going to tighten the spring.Go a full 360.I wish Emmons had a screw outside the endplate like a Franklin or JCH.It makes this chore sooo much easier.Let us know how things turn out.--bb

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 17 May 2003 10:56 am

Just in case there are any more 'interested spectators' reading this 'thread', here's the latest....

This morning I flipped the guitar over and THOUGHT I'd tightened the return spring - then I re-read Larry's e-mail and checked my 'work'. I'd been rotating the whole assembly and hadn't tightened it at all! I duly reported (above) that the problem was still there, when I had, in fact, done nothing.

When I used the needle-nose pliers the spring turned and - voila... it worked! Now I've got my RKL fully returning, and I've regained one of my favourite 'pulls'!

I'm still a little concerned as to how it happened, and I think I'll get the guitar cleaned and re-lubed when I can spare it.

I just wanted you guys to know the level of ineptitude I'm capable of sinking to - when my Emmons does get cleaned, it'll be by someone who knows what they're doing.

Thanks again, Larry, Richard, Carl, Gino, Martin, Bobby and Ricky for all your help!

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Roger Rettig

Ernie Renn · Post by **Ernie Renn** » 17 May 2003 11:40 am

Roger;
Glad you got it working. I just read your post and knew right away what it was. I tightened my 4th string spring two weeks ago. I imagine just setting for two weeks gave the spring time to stretch a tad.

I've never heard of the problem you went to the factory with. Let's hope it doesn't surface it's ugly face again...

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My best,
Ernie

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