Ankle Roll, Seat Height?

Tony LaCroix · Post by **Tony LaCroix** » 12 May 2003 10:25 am

Well, I've been in the woodshed for a few days- enjoying every minute of it.

I've decided to always practice with my boots on, since that's what I'll be wearing if I ever get this thing out of the house and out to a show. The boot's narrow tip makes it easier to switch from one pedal to the next, but I'm having a lot of trouble switching pedals without engaging my LKL. I know I'm supposed to 'roll' my ankle from one side to the other, but this is tough, especially wearing boots. It occured to me that I might be sitting too low. I'm using a regular folding chair. How high up should I be sitting?

Thanks,

Tony

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 12 May 2003 11:36 am

Thighs roughly parallel to the floor

So, your seat should be (more or less) the distance from your heel to the bottom of your knee off the floor.

I suspect you're sitting too low. Are your knees higher than your seat? If so, put books or magazines in the chair to keep you from going 'uphill' and see if that's more comfortable. If so, buy an adjustable drum seat/throne or a real pak-a-seat. You see them used in Buy and Sell occasionally or can buy them new from most SG retailers.

Practice these moves until you can do them all without levers getting in the way
NO PEDALS to A+B
NO PEDALS to A only
NO PEDALS to B only
A+B to NO PEDALS
(these are the trickier ones)
A+B to A only
A+B to B only

After you've got that, add levers -- in particular
NO PEDALS to A+F lever
NO PEDALS to B+Eb lever

Good luck.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 12 May 2003 at 12:41 PM.]

Jeff Watson · Post by **Jeff Watson** » 12 May 2003 12:56 pm

I find all the mechanics of operating pedals and levers, as well as picking, to be far easier the higher I am sitting. Both my thighs and my forearms are angled downward (my legs are almost up against my guitar). I'm sure there are as many opinions as there are players out there. I'll bet if your finding it difficult to roll your ankle you've got the Emmons pedal setup. I like the Day setup because I believe its a more natural ankle movement (as long as we're breaking out opinions).

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 12 May 2003 1:06 pm

The reason you're having trouble rolling your ankle is because of your BOOTS! Get rid of them and get you some low sided shoes.
Uff-Da!

Mike Kowalik · Post by **Mike Kowalik** » 12 May 2003 1:21 pm

Better yet..do what I do...play barefooted!!

Tony LaCroix · Post by **Tony LaCroix** » 12 May 2003 1:23 pm

Erv, thanks for the suggestion. But when I moved from your neck of the woods to Texas, my feet changed shape. It's weird, I just woke up one morning with a pointed toe and a drawl!

Seriously, though. I feel good wearing boots on stage and I intend to always play 6-string (standing up) as part of each show. I've become hooked on the cowboy boot look and feel.

Jeff, you're right, I have an Emmons setup. But unless thousands of steelers have rubber ankles, there must be a way to make my feet work that way.

Larry, I'll try a drum stool. I wish I could afford a pack-a-seat, but not right now. Thanks for the practice tips.

Colm Chomicky · Post by **Colm Chomicky** » 13 May 2003 9:39 am

To add ankle flex to your boots take your Bowie knife and cut horizontal slots through the leather, both sides of boot about ankle height. Or have custom shark skin boots made with the gills located both sides, ankle height

[This message was edited by Colm Chomicky on 13 May 2003 at 10:39 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 13 May 2003 12:21 pm

Your ankle doesn't have to flex as much as you might think. The main thing is that the shoe or boot must fit snug across the ball of your foot. If it is too loose, you can flex your foot and ankle all you want inside that big boot, but the sole ain't movin', and the pedals ain't rockin'. With a well fitting boot you can probably rock as well as with a shoe, as long as the boot doesn't fit tight around the ankle and calf (most cowboy boots don't). Some people find the long pointy toes get caught on the pedal rods, but others seem to do fine with this problem.

Also, you can do quite a bit of rocking with very little ankle flex by swinging your knee right or left. For this you have to have your knee levers set right so you can hit them when you want, but not when you don't. Also, you can adjust the pedals so they require less flex in rocking and are easier to clear.

As for the Emmons (ABC) or Day (CBA) setup, I rock as much one way as the other, so could never see that ankle flex has anything to do with this question. It's all what you are used to. I'm glad I started with the Emmons setup because that's the way most guitars are setup. So it's something I don't have to worry about when trading guitars or trying out someone else's.

Seems like with the right knee and pedal setup, and the right boots, you can do just fine. Lot's of people do.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 14 May 2003 9:01 am

Cowboy boots with the very narrow heels will rock easier than the wide heels.
And with the not too pointy toes so you don't hit the rods.
Of course a babe in stilleto heels will rock your sox off.

John Borchard · Post by **John Borchard** » 14 May 2003 10:33 am

Tony, there have been a number of discussions on the forum regarding footwear. As a yankee who played in Austin for 13 years in the '70s and '80s, I caught the boot bug, too. My advice is have a good pair of custom boots made (there are - or at least were - a couple of good bootmakers right in Austin), making sure the tops are nice and pliable. A good pair of custom boots will last for years and years. Also, I've known a couple guys who wear what look like cowboy boots, but are low-cut like a standard oxford.

These days, I like my Converse Chuck Taylors -- almost like going barefoot. Good luck!

John Borchard

Dave Robbins · Post by **Dave Robbins** » 15 May 2003 10:55 pm

Larry is on the right track!

There are many variables that most players never consider when it comes to playing their guitars, such as type of shoes as well as the type of heel, height of the seating, and even the height of their guitars!

I think it goes without saying that "shorter guys" should play a shorter guitar and "taller" guys a taller guitar, but how many still order a standard height guitar? Do your legs rub against the bottom of the guitar when you play? Do you have to angle the guitar drastically in order to get under it? Do your knees hit the levers near the top or down low? Somebody whose knees hit near the top of the levers might need more "travel" because they hit the lever so high. Whereas, someone whose knees hit the lever near the lower end may need "less" travel, and either one might be better off with a different height guitar (or seat) instead. A guitar that is too high can not be remedied by using a taller seat! Neither should someone use a shorter seat to squeeze under a guitar that is too short! And it should never be angled drastically! That is totally rediculous! (I saw someone playing steel once who had the guitar angled so badly in order to get under it that it would almost tip over by itself!

)

Also did you ever consider that a person with a smaller foot might find that pedals set lower to the floor are much easier to operate than someone with a larger foot?

Other variables that should be considered are things like the height of the pedals when not pressed down as well as the height when they are pressed down. Do they bottom out evenly, or one higher than the other? Do you find that you have to have one pedal raised way higher than another? If so, why?

Also, concerning the guitar height, do you find that your arms rest comfortably at your sides and across the top of the guitar or are they "splayed" outwardly? Do you stoop over when you play? Do you sit way towards the end of the guitar and then find that the LKL is difficult to operate?

There is a correct way and location to sit at your guitar and "adjustments" can be made to almost any guitar so that it will be more personal to the player, as well as comfortable. There is no reason fo anyone's ankles to hurt in order to play their guitar, let alone back aches, or anything else, when the problem most often can be adressed simply by making very simple adjustments.

When ever I start a new student, part of the first lesson is spent making sure their guitars "fit them" and that adjustments are made to make their playing experience more enjoyable.

Dave[This message was edited by Dave Robbins on 16 May 2003 at 12:08 AM.]

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 16 May 2003 5:33 am

A guitar that is too high can not be remedied by using a taller seat! Neither should someone use a shorter seat to squeeze under a guitar that is too short!

At 6'2", all guitars I've owned have been raised at least 1". However, when I sit in on Jerry Fessenden's standard height guitars with his seat, I can get under them.

He took a regular seat and cut 1" off the legs. I'm thinking of trying that on my own seat, but then I'd have to shorten my guitars again.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 16 May 2003 6:21 am

Excellent points, Dave (as usual)

Two additional things:
Another factor that should be considered is that when you sit TOO HIGH you will have the tendency to STOMP the pedals with your full pressure on the pedals. This puts undue stress on your guitar and will often produce more cabinet drop, the harder you press the pedals. Good technique dictates that you only press a pedal or lever to the stop and one way to accomplish this is to play with your HEEL ON THE FLOOR. This makes it much more difficult to stomp and gives you a pivot point for rocking on and off pedals more easily. Be sure your seat and seating position will allow this.

The second is to observe those who play well. How do they sit? Do they jack up the back legs of their guitar? I've said it before -- WATCH BUDDY EMMONS. He's as fun to watch as he is to listen to. His technique is as close to impeccable as it gets and he's tried EVERYTHING.

Another thing that occurred to me is to be sure your pedals are as low to the floor as possible without bottoming out on the floor or carpet. I usually adjust mine such that there's 1/2" or so between the floor and the bottom of the pedal when pushed to the stop.

Just some thoughts. Good luck carvin' up those cowboy boots. I prefer Nikes or boat shoes.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 16 May 2003 at 07:25 AM.]

Dave Robbins · Post by **Dave Robbins** » 16 May 2003 10:08 pm

Jim,
be careful about the short seat idea. That may be alright for sittin' in temporarily on someone else's guitar, but I don't think that is the answer for long term if you're 6'2".
As said, check to make sure your thighs are parallel to the floor, arms comfortably at your side and parallel to the top, etc. Basically, right angles or 90*.

Don't forget that boots could become a problem if you use a short seat and shorten your guitar. I shortened a guitar that I had and used a short seat with it. Everything seemed to fit fine until I put on "boots!" Then my legs were hitting the bottom of the guitar.

Also, if you have a verticle lever, don't forget that you have to be positioned correctly under the guitar to operate it. On the shortened guitar that I was talking about, I found that when I raised the vert' I would lift the guitar off the floor!

Take some time to fit your guitar to you. Use a mirror, if you have one that will give you a full view, that will let you see what is really going on. And, don't forget the shoes!

By the way, Weldon Myrick always used a guitar that was at least one inch over. Any time I sat down under it my 5'8" knees would pass completely underneath the knee levers without ever touching them!

I usually use a standard height steel and then make sure the seat that I use is the correct height for me to operate the vert levers correctly. I also lower the pedals some on every guitar that I own and adjust them by switching between standard shoes (low type) and cowboy boots until a good compromise is found, and with out the pedals getting burried in standard carpet.

Good luck!
Dave