Gauged rollers

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 6 May 2003 4:49 am

Other than Carter and I think Emmons, do any other builders include gauged rollers on their guitars?

Does anyone sell these?

thanks,
Drew

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www.newslinkassociates.com
www.drewhoward.com

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 6 May 2003 4:52 am

Mullen uses them, I believe. Don't know who sells them separately, though.

Richard Gonzales · Post by **Richard Gonzales** » 6 May 2003 4:58 am

MSA Millennium has gauged rollers!

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 6 May 2003 6:26 am

I was unaware Carter had guaged rollers. In addition to Emmons, Mullen, and the new MSA, there is also Zum, Fulawka (I think), and Sierra. I sent e-mails to about 10 manufacturers asking them for the measurements of their rollers to see if they would fit on my Fessy S12U. Most of them answered, but not a single one gave me a single measurement. They mostly told me to get them from the manufacturer of my guitar. Well, Jerry Fessenden does not supply them.

In another post about this problem about a month ago I also asked players to simply measure the rollers on their guitar, so that we could see which brands are compatible. The measurements needed are the width of the roller, the diameter of the roller, the diameter of the axle, and the width of the string groove (the larger strings usually rest on the edges of the groove, so the bottom of the groove is irrelevant, except possibly for the smallest strings, which do sit down in the groove - but the problem is mostly with the very largest guage strings on C6 and 12-strings). If people will post the measurements from their guitar(s) here, I will collect them in a chart. Then you could measure what you need on your guitar and just order off-the-shelf rollers from whatever manufacturer has rollers that size.

Machinists will make guaged rollers, but it will typically cost $100 bucks or so, and the results may be inconsistent. It is not a simple matter of making the grooves the width of the string. Some trial and error is usually involved. However, the results don't have to be perfect to greatly improve the problem. Most of the manufacturers who put guaged rollers on their guitars don't have 10 or 12 different sizes. They simply have two or three sizes of wider grooves for the lowest strings, and that takes care of the biggest part of the problem. But they use different sized axles and roller widths and diameters, so you have to know these measurements to be sure the rollers will work on a given guitar. Roller sets are usually available from PSG manufacturers for around $50.

So I will ask once again. Please just take a good ruler and measure the rollers on your guitar and post the measurements here along with the brand, model and year of your guitar, and which neck and the number of strings. We can then set up a chart so we can mix and match off-the-shelf rollers that are just sitting there for the taking, without having to go the expensive machine shop route. Maybe b0b could put the chart in the reference section of the Forum.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 06 May 2003 at 03:17 PM.]

Jim Peter · Post by **Jim Peter** » 6 May 2003 8:18 am

Bruce Zumsteg made some custom gauged rollers for the bottom two strings on my U-12 Zum at no cost even though I had owned the guitar for a couple of years.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 6 May 2003 9:00 am

I went thru this recently with my keyless U-12 Excel.The way it came,strings 7 & 8 were riding so low I could get a credit card between them and the bar at the 1st fret.I e-mailed Mitsuo about the problem with photos,drawings and my string gauges.Forthwith,he sent me a new set of rollers which I installed and now strings 2 & 10 were riding kinda low. So by mixing and matching different rollers from the original and the new set,I got lucky and was able to come up with the tops of the strings damn near perfectly aligned. -MJ-

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 6 May 2003 9:17 am

My Williams has gauged rollers.

William Peters · Post by **William Peters** » 6 May 2003 12:48 pm

Cougar guitars have guaged nut rollers. I thought that was the norm.

Bill
[This message was edited by William Peters on 06 May 2003 at 01:48 PM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 6 May 2003 1:18 pm

Following are facts in my case.

1. 1969 Emmons P/P; nut rollers were drilled on an ecentric. I did not know this until I saw BE at a Namm show in 1977. He told me about it. But it was too difficult to mess with. I lived with string rattle at the first few frets til I sold the guitar.

2. My 1988 Emmons'Lashley LeGrande had string rattle. I called Emmons and they sent me a new set. They were worse. Lived with originals. Hated it.

3. My 1992 Sierra Session D-10 U-12 had string rattle at the first few frets. I called Don Christensen. He sent me a new set. They were worse. I lived with the problem and I hated it.

4. My 2000 Excel U-12 had string rattle at the 1st few frets bad. I sent Mistuo an email. He promptly sent me a knew set. They were worse. I went back to the originals.

I have struck out. I continue to hear stories about manufacturers making gauged nut rollers along with stories about players having very good luck with them. I also hear stories of how easy it is to measure and calculate for making gauged nut rollers.

Well all I can say is, that has NOT proved to be the case in my case.

Oh well,

carl

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 6 May 2003 2:24 pm

Bobby and Bill, are your Williams and Cougar guaged rollers satisfactory? If so, could you post the measurements so we can see if the axle etc. is compatible with our keyheads? Also anyone else with satisfactory guaged rollers. Obviously the manufacturers don't care about this problem and the only solution is for us to put together our own mix and match table from their stock items.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 06 May 2003 at 03:25 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 6 May 2003 6:53 pm

Satisfactory? Yes. Perfect? No. Ditto with the Sierra. I'm not as picky as Carl about this. I probably apply more pressure to the bar than he does.

I don't have a micrometer, so any dimensions I gave you would be wrong.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 7 May 2003 5:18 am

Well, I took mine to a machine shop and it took about an hour to make 12 rollers and gauge them to our best guess, based on string gauges. It still had problems, but went through two more iterations. After replacing 3 or 4 of the worst offenders, it's much better. As b0b says, not perfect, but much better.

When we started, there was a .010 to .015" gap under the bar on the 6th and 7th strings. Now, there's no more than .003 (or so) gap (hard to measure since the string is not rigid and the feeler gauge can displace the string) and all strings do fret with NO BAR PRESSURE, but they still buzz a bit. A MINIMUM amount of bar pressure -- just the weight of my hand -- keeps it from buzzing. I don't think it's worth the time and effort to go further. It did improve playability 100%. In retrospect, I believe that Bruce's idea of having three different sizes would go a long way toward improving the alignment problem,

My conclusion is if there's a bit of a buzz you can probably live with it, but if the string doesn't fret properly with no hand pressure you will fight it until you solve the problem. It's just more work to play when the tops of the strings aren't plane. My second conclusion, based on a non-scientific survey, is that EVERY 12-STRING STEEL I'VE EVER PLAYED HAS THIS PROBLEM. Most 10-string C6 necks do as well. I have played a few S-10 E9 necks that were fine with whatever the mfgr supplied. Just my experience.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 07 May 2003 at 06:20 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 7 May 2003 7:48 am

There is a very long thread on this topic if you search for "graduated nut rollers." There are also older threads under "guaged nut rollers." The jist of all of these is that it is an expensive hassle to get a local machinist to make these things.

Fortunately several manufacturers (MSA, Zum, Emmons, Williams, Cougar, Carter?, and a few others) make guaged roller sets. So one could simply buy their off-the-shelf roller sets, typically for about $50 bucks, or about half what a machinist will charge. However, the axles come in different sizes, and some (e.g. old Sho-Buds) have rollers of different widths. The rollers on my Emmons 12-string P/P are the same diameter and width as my Fessy's rollers, but the axle size is different.

Below are my measurements. Please post yours. After all these long threads and my repeated requests, somehow no one but me has posted their measurements. This is the quick fix for this problem. Please, let's help each other.

You don't need calipers to make these measurements. Even a desk ruler with marks down to 1/16" will work (if it's between the marks call it 1/32). Steel tapes usually have marks down to 1/32", which are completely adequate. Please take a minute and make your measurements and post them here. Also, please mention whether the grooves are U-shaped or V-shaped, as the V-shaped ones are the best.

Here are the measurements for the rollers on my guitars (crudely measured with a ruler, not precision measured with calipers).

Emmons '80s P/P 12-string ext. E9:
roller width 1/8", roller diameter 5/16", string groove 1/32" (strings 1-10) and 1/16" (strings 11 and 12)), axle diameter 1/16"

Fessenden 2000 S12U:
roller width 1/8", roller diameter 5/16", string groove 3/64" (all), axle diameter 3/32"

Sho-Bud professional:
roller width 3/32", roller diameter 3/8", string groove 1/16" (all), axle diameter 3/32"

If others will post the roller measurements for their guitar(s) I'll put them all in a table so we can hopefully mix and match our own custom sets from ready made rollers from the various pedal steel manufacturers.

Please get out those rulers, and thanks guys.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 07 May 2003 at 08:51 AM.][This message was edited by David Doggett on 07 May 2003 at 08:51 AM.][This message was edited by David Doggett on 08 May 2003 at 08:35 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 7 May 2003 8:03 am

Larry, the way to examine the "flatness" across the strings is to place a hard straight edge right across the top of the strings at the nut, not out in front of the nut where the bending strings will distort the gap. With improperly or un-guaged rollers you will see a huge gap that starts out fairly flat over the unwound strings, and then curves steeply upward toward the huge 10th string (C6) or 12th string (it's not so bad on 10-string E9).

While you will see even small descrepancies in flatness at the nut, for most sets of rollers where some attempt has been made to guage them, the small divergencies from flatness are taken care of with normal bar and hand pressure, even at the first fret. That is why just using two different guages (as my Emmons does) or three (as Zum supposedly does) greatly reduces the problem. I'm not looking for perfection, but will settle for substantial improvement in the problem. I am very interested in the Zum rollers if their axle and width will work on my Fessy. Anyone out there have a Zum they can measure? As a last resort I may get a set of Emmons guaged rollers and drill out the axle hole to fit the larger Fessy axle.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 7 May 2003 8:31 am

While it is normal for some to "scoff" at those who wish things to be better, improvement ONLY comes because there are those who insist things be better, rather than "it's good enough". At least as far as "better" can be made by man.

The problem with nut rollers is a simple one. The solution is NOT as simple. EVEN though it appears to be.

There is NO reason why the tops of ALL strings are not dead flat. I am not talking about give or take a few thousands. I am talking about dead flat.

If the machinist is a real pro, this is easy. The problem is the same with auto mechanics; or any other tradesman. For every one that is really apt, most are not. Sadly. They are the reasons that one oft' hears, "they still didn't get it right".

IMO, the answer is not now; nor ever will be "gauged" rollers. Rather the answer is adjustable (up and down) nut rollers. This would require little more to the key (or keyless) head than is already there.

The block is there. Simply mill a 5/16" slot all the way across. Make 5/16" individual square nut supports milled with a slot for the roller and a slot at right angles for the individual axles. Drill and tap for an adjusting allen screw all the way through this roller support. Drill it so that it is at a compound angle and thread it. This would allow it to be adjusted from the top AND with strings installed.

This would then pemit the player to be able to EASILY achieve 100% dead flat strings at the tops of the nut rollers. IF the player felt a rattle or buzz due to tolerances in given strings; or he changed gauges, a quick "tweaking" of the adjusment screw and they are dead flat again.

If one spared no expense an LED lite array (one for each string) calibration bar, could be built that would remove EVERY bit of the guess work out of it. IE, any LED that did not light needs to be adjusted. The player hearing rattle would simply put this LED bar across the strings at the top of the nut rollers. Either all 10 LEDS (or how ever many) would light or not. The ones that did not light would be low. Simply raise them up. IF more did not light than did, then those should be lowered.

It is as simple as that. Considering that the PSG is the world's MOST unique instrument and one of the most difficult to master, ANY aid that can take away from natural frustrations needs to be built in.

ALL PSG's should have had this from day one. One day it will be IMO. That day could not come soon enough for me.

carl

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 7 May 2003 9:25 am

Build a nut like that for a Sierra, Carl, and I'll buy one from you!

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 7 May 2003 9:25 am

Well, Carl, I'm with you in that I think it would be a wonderful thing if the manuufacturers would experiment with individually adjustable rollers. It remains to be seen if rollers seated on axle supports on allen screws would have an adverse effect on tone. If not, then your suggestion seems reasonable. Regardless of whether they are adjustable or just guaged, I would never accept a new guitar in which the strings at the rollers were not flat or damn near. Unfortunately I have only been able afford used instruments lately (and there will be a lot of these around with this problem for a long time), and so I'm stuck with this problem and would be happy for some improvement, even if it is not perfect. So stock roller measurements please everyone. Thanks.

Bobby Bowman · Post by **Bobby Bowman** » 7 May 2003 9:40 am

What Carl says will certainly work as far as the mechanical side of the design goes. It would probably have a few draw backs too. Probably have some affect on tone and sustain. Who knows, it might even be a good effect,,,,it might not.
However, there are just to many differences in the "specs" of the various builders for that exchange to be of much value. If the builder of your guitar does not or will not make or offer a guaged set of rollers that are exact, then the only lodgical choice is to have them made by a competent machinest to fit your nut bar and the guages of the strings you chose to use.
BB

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 7 May 2003 11:18 am

Bobby, maybe you are right that the stock roller specs are too variable to swap brands. But how do we know unless we make a table of the various specs to see? In my limited experience with my two guitars (Fessy S12U and Emmons p/p S12 ext. E9) the specs are identical except for the axle diameter. I expect that by chance some of the brands will be interchangeable. Come on guys, let's see your guitar's roller specs so we can tell if mixing and matching brands is possible in some cases.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 7 May 2003 12:27 pm

I suggest that IF the adjustable nut roller assemblies were held to very close tolerances, IE, somewhat tight fit, in all directions, there would be NO detectable tonal difference in a triple blind test.

carl

Jackie Anderson · Post by **Jackie Anderson** » 7 May 2003 2:00 pm

There would very likely be SOME effect on tone and/or sustain due to the difference in mass and materials; but, as Bobby said, it could be a GOOD difference; or it might just be one of those differences that is neither good nor bad -- and probably a lot less than the difference between the sound of different strings (or new ones vs. dead ones), not to mention the differences resulting from things like amplifier, effect box or pickup changes. It would definitely sound better than the buzz and rattle of uneven strings at the first fret!

However, considering that it would require a machinist to retrofit such a nut to many steels (e.g. those where the nut is integral to the peg head), it still might be cheaper to get some custom rollers made....

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 8 May 2003 7:39 am

I have updated the roller specs I posted above with the specs for the rollers on a Sho-Bud professional key-head piece I put on an old Maverick.

Carter has informed me that they do not have guaged rollers on their guitars, and that they have had few requests for them.

Will those with guaged rollers on their guitars (MSA, ZUM, Emmons, Williams, Sierra, Cougar, etc.) please post their measurements so that those of us without them can see if rollers from your manufacturer would fit on our guitars? Thanks

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 08 May 2003 at 08:41 AM.][This message was edited by David Doggett on 10 May 2003 at 08:22 AM.][This message was edited by David Doggett on 10 May 2003 at 08:32 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 8 May 2003 9:48 am

Here are the measurements I took this morning:

Williams 400X
diameter: 3/8"
width: 3/16"
hole: 1/8"

Sierra
diameter: 5/8"
width: 11/64"
hole: 3/16"

The Sierra measurement was from a nut assembly in my parts bin. I'm not sure if it was a Crown or a Session model, but I think they're the same.

William Peters · Post by **William Peters** » 8 May 2003 4:11 pm

Ok, here are my measurements from my Cougar.

The axle is .125 (1/8) inch.
The roller diameter is .375 or 3/8 inch.
The width is .205 inch.

My rollers are pretty accurate... Halfway between the first fret and the nut, only string 8 buzzes with just the weight of the bar as long as I don't pick too hard.

But, If I were to change any of the string guages, it would probably be off. I actually thought that having the guaged rollers was a bad idea, because I feel locked into a specific string set. My strings are Cobra Coils by the way.

Hope this helps.

Bill
Cougar SD-10, Peavey TNT-115, Misc other stuff

Bruce Derr · Post by **Bruce Derr** » 8 May 2003 4:24 pm

I measured the rollers on my Kline. Even though Joe's not making steels anymore, the info might be useful to someone.

1978 Kline S-12:
Width 3/16"
Diameter 3/8"
Axle 3/32"
V-groove

I looked at the grooves closely and it looks like I have 7 different sizes on my guitar. I was there when Joe put the rollers on the guitar. He tried a few combinations, testing with the bar halfway between the nut and the first fret. I've changed some string gauges a bit since then, but it's still reasonable flat. The 8th string is the most likely to buzz.