Hennerman, Fossa--electroluminescent

Everett Cox · Post by **Everett Cox** » 1 May 2003 1:57 pm

Barb -- Your recent request for lighted fretboards left out a few details. What color(s) can you see best? What scale length? How many strings (how wide should the fretboard be)? Are you able to see a regular fretboard in normally lit settings?

There's been stuff available for a couple years that might help you out. Under various trade names, it is ELECTRO-LUMINESCENT wire and sheets. The wire is about a tenth of an inch (or a bit larger) in diameter. It is made up of an inner core wire which has been coated with a phosphor. A very fine wire(s) is wrapped around the core and encased in a clear or colored transparent plastic.

Power is applied to the inner core wire and the surrounding wire, placing the phosphor in an alternating electrical field. This causes the phosphor to emit light. The power is usually supplied by a small gadget that uses batteries or a wall-wart. That gadget determines the voltage and frequency applied to the wire. The wire emits more light as the voltage and/or frequency is increased.

The wire can be had in a few basic colors such as blue, green, red, yellow, etc. and clear (white). Cost is generally around $2 per foot and the power gadgets aprox $6 - 16 depending on voltage/frequency/current.

The wire can be bent to conform to any shape but usually no less than a quarter inch radius. The wire can be cut and then electrically reconnected so as to form the 'ladder' design of a fretboard. Or, perhaps, 'laced' thru holes in some kind of substrate to create the design.

Here's a couple web sites. http://www.elwirecheap.com/elwirebyfoot.html http://www.glowire.com/

Chipper-- There also are electroluminescent sheets available. Rather expensive, tho. They are made of a matrix of fine wires embedded in a phosphor impregnated plastic sheet. 'Terminal' wires extend from the edges of the sheet. The sheet can be cut to any shape and have 'holes' cut out to create a desired design so long as at least two terminal wires remain. Colors and power supplies are similar to the 'neon wire' above.

There are luminescent keyboards on the market for aprox $65 - 100.

***************************

I may aquire some of the wire and experiment so I need your answers, Barb. Very important! I forgot to ask how much clearance under the strings - a fretboard would probably require about a quarter inch.

--Everett

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 1 May 2003 5:07 pm

If I had 1/10th the intelligence that Everett
has,I would be a happy guy..Thanks Everett.

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 1 May 2003 6:19 pm

I agree, Jody. Yet, another fascinating side
of Everett.

Ev, I'm gonna let the fretboard issue rest for a while, but would you happen to have links or phone #'s for the the back-lit PC
keyboards?

My eyesight is really getting worse and worse
as time moves on, and I just know that a back-lit, well, back-lit ANYTHING, would be most welcome.

Thanks Ev, for that real informative post.

Chipper

Everett Cox · Post by **Everett Cox** » 1 May 2003 10:36 pm

Yeah Jody-- Since it seems only about half my brain is functioning these days, I could let you have 10 percent and never miss it. Bet you'd make better use of it than I ever could!

Chipper-- Here's a couple links to give you the idea. http://www.monster-hardware.com/modules.php?name=Reviews&rop=showcontent&id=63
http://www.xenoline.com/ilelke.html

I would NOT recommend either of these keyboards as they are expensive and smaller than standard. There is a better unit (if I can remember the brand) that is full size and has translucent key caps that allow for MUCH better lighted visibility.

You can make your own at MUCH less cost if you are able to drill a few holes and do a bit of careful soldering. There are several sites that provide detailed instructions.

Basically, you disassemble a keyboard and drill the holes to allow lacing the wire under or between the keys. If you can use a USB unit, the EL wire would connect to its special 'driver' (inverter) which could then be powered by the USB port. That being done by soldering the leads to the power pins within the keyboard. The inverter is small enough to also fit within many keyboards.

I'll try to find and pass along better info.

I just purchased some EL wire and an inverter and, time permitting, will experiment.
--Everett

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 2 May 2003 6:57 am

I looked at the glow wire site. variable intensity is very nice.
A 5' unit would do 20-22 frets of the sho-bud.
Beyond that your on your ears anyway.
A 10' would do most of the D-10s necks.

If I can find a old Pro-II or equivilent size
fret board (I won't touch the original), I could glue the wire in several loops up the neck till it runs out. And then paint the between fret sections black. This would work.

James Ingram · Post by **James Ingram** » 2 May 2003 3:43 pm

This possible approach to illuminating fret board. lucite plastic. when highly polished end of lucite is lite by light source it transmits light through out piece of lucite. would this approach be usefull. you,d just lay it right over fretboard. use when needed any thoughts. James

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 2 May 2003 4:59 pm

Everett, I think this would be the way to go. If Barbara wants to play, we should help her with this fretboard.
Barb, what kind of steel do you have? Single or double?
Sounds like all we need to do, is get a piece of clear plexiglass, make some routs for the wire, lay(or glue) the wire in place,
glue the fretboard down, and power it up. What do y'all think?

Everett Cox · Post by **Everett Cox** » 2 May 2003 7:39 pm

This is NOT just a simple or frivelous project.

To create a complete fretboard pattern would require about 10ft, or more, of EL wire, not 5ft - if the wire were used as a single piece. Less, if cut into individual components but that would then require much DELICATE soldering. The inner wires are very fine (about like pickup wire). The phosphor which makes the stuff glow is very moisture intolerant and any joints would have to be sealed. One long piece is better than many short ones.

Plexi is great in some respects for fretboards but it also has drawbacks. I've tried a few times to 'route' fret lines and designs with less than perfect results. A rotary cutting tool has a tendency to melt the material and leaves a bad edge. Using a router to cut a complete pattern requires an extremely complex template and much skill.

In my limited experience, a light source at the ends will, indeed, be reflected nicely by the fret cuts -- if they are 'V' cuts and polished. A purposely 'rough' or 'etched' pattern on an otherwise polished surface will show up - but not brightly enough for what I believe Barb requires. And still takes a lot of time and skill to create.

I have neither the time nor money I would like for some of these projects and have to work with what I can get and do. Helping someone to start playing or to overcome a problem which impedes their ability is important. So, yes, Steve - I'm all for doing what we can to assist Barb.

Rich Sullivan emailed to say his experience using EL wire resulted in a serious problem with hum/feedback in his pickup. The EL wire phosphor is energised by an AC field at a frequency (usually) of around 500 to 5000hz.

We still need to hear from Barb. If her main problem is seeing the fretboard in normally well lit conditions, this 'glo-wire' stuff may not help much. I just ordered some and will try to see how well it works.

--Everett

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 3 May 2003 1:44 am

....EL wire resulted in a serious problem with hum/feedback in his pickup. The EL wire phosphor is energised by an AC field at a frequency(usually) of around 500 to 5000hz.

Well there's the rub with this solution.
He didn't mention if he had single or double coil pickups?

So some clear plexiglass with several little LED's inserted along it just a few mm inside, and then the fret markers painted in black on top, would give a back lit grid to play over.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 03 May 2003 at 02:54 AM.]

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 3 May 2003 5:02 am

Thanks Ev, for those links. Something crossed
my mind.

I'm thinking of the RAISED Sho-Bud fretboards.

Maybe one of the steel builders could make
a retro-fit fretboard; I can envision the 'glow wire' laid inside those raised
ridges. Of course, instead of solid black, they would have to be clear, or opaque.

Each steeler would have to take precise measurements of their steel's fretboard.

Maybe the builder of the back-lit fretboard
could possibly have a fretboard-template- inventory. Templates from all steel manufacturers. Probably some deal would have to be arranged
due to patent rights/infringements etc.

I don't think the majority of steel manufacturers would object to this idea. It's really just the dimensions you would want. The back-lit maker would probably want to create their own style/fretmarkers/colors
etc., anyway.

The new B-L fretboard could probably be installed with just simple, but durable,
double-stick tape.

Just another thought.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 3 May 2003 3:05 pm

Everett, you're right, of course about the AC hum. I didn't know you powered this stuff
with AC, thought maybe a wall wart would do it.
And Barb, we need some help from you!

Everett Cox · Post by **Everett Cox** » 9 May 2003 11:04 pm

OK guys and girls, an EL wire kit got here this morning. My initial impression was that this stuff is VERY, VERY NEAT!!!

I got a 20 foot length complete with the special inverter prewired and powered by a standard 9 volt battery. Various other inverters are available with different battery and/or wall-wart options for power.

To begin with, connecting the battery produced a much better than expected effect. The wire glowed brightly with a most pleasing shade of light blue. Plenty of light for our purpose. Other colors are available.

Only had time for a little experimenting. As Rich Sullivan had said, there was some hum or feedback caused. I'm confident, though, that this will NOT be a problem. All the interference came from the inverter - not the EL wire, itself. The field was directional and not very strong. I tested with a guitar equiped with 2 single coil pickups. Placing the inverter at the key end, it could be oriented so as to eliminate the hum(squeal). Properly shielding the inverter will, no doubt, completely solve that problem. The glowing wire, itself, does not emit the disturbing field.

For normally sighted folks who want something for low-light playing situations, this stuff is perfect. MUCH better than LED's or any 'regular' kind of lights. You can just 'outline' the existing fretboard or any other area of the guitar. The glow is bright enough, yet soft and not distracting.

I can envision many possible ways to employ EL wire. As time permits, I'll try to do a fretboard and computer keyboard application.

--Everett

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 10 May 2003 10:30 am

The EL wire phosphor is energised by an AC field at a frequency (usually) of around 500 to 5000hz.

It's powered by either AC or pulsed DC. The strips we had used power supplies that put out 300 volts, almost no amps (although I did get zapped), at 1250hz. The entire strip or wire acts like a speaker and if the power supply is putting out a waveform with a lot of high harmonics, the strip is even noisier.

I was talking to a friend of mine who is an engineer over at Disney about how to make the strips quiet. He told a story of how they illuminated all of the vu meters in the console on the mixing stage with electroluminescent panels before they realized that it was the panel and not the power supply that was making all the noise.

Barbara Hennerman · Post by **Barbara Hennerman** » 10 May 2003 11:28 am

You guys are the greatest. Thanks for the time and effort put into this project. I believe we've solved my problem with glopaint. Bob is going to drill small holes into my fretboard and drop the glopaint into the holes. I now have a black light I can mount and I believe the problem is solved. He did this to a handgun he owns and it is perfect for him. The glo wire sounds so cool. I have a Mullen D-10. Bob said he could mill out the fretboard and then we could go from there. I don't know. I have certainly found my family here on the forum. Thanks again guys.
Barb

Everett Cox · Post by **Everett Cox** » 10 May 2003 12:35 pm

Chas.-- I highly regard your knowledge and ability to articulate your thoughts.

With the EL kit I purchased, there is no doubt at all that the EMI can be controlled. The ONLY source is the inverter and the leads from it to the EL wire. THE EL WIRE, ITSELF, EMITTED NO FIELD AT ALL.

I purposely used single coil, hum prone, standard guitar pickups for my test. Wrapping the EL wire over/around the PU's produced no hum/squeal. ONLY the inverter and leads. Placing the inverter between the tuning keys and turning it relative to the PU's was sufficient to eliminate the hum.

Shielding the inverter and using coax rather than twin-lead should solve that problem entirely.

--Everett