Mark Knopfler does not - Buddy Emmons does!

Bruno Rasmussen · Post by **Bruno Rasmussen** » 25 Apr 2003 11:18 am

I am going to make a tuff decision. Play with picks or play without picks! I do both for now, but without the picks feels a lot more comfortable and I’m really tempted dropping them. To some extend a search in previous posts has enlightened the differences, but I think some major questions are still open.
I really hope this post will enlighten what possibly could be/or not be, the consequences of dropping the picks totally, and, so I hope, enable me to make the right decision.
It seems like most players choose to play with picks, - because everybody else does that – or?
Could playing without picks cause some limitations in fx matters of technique? Is it possible to play as fast without, as with? Is it possible to get a decent fingerblocking (pickblocking) technique? Is palmblocking more difficult without picks? Will a lot of practice overcome whatever problem might appear? These questions are just some of many that so far have kept me from dropping the picks for good.
I read in a post by Ernie Renn that Buddy Emmons sometime in the past played without picks for seven month, and stated that he couldn’t recognize any difference in tone, and playing without picks somehow gave him an enhanced feeling of the strings. What could possible have been his reason(s) for going back to picks??
Regarding the question of tone, I think Mark Knopfler has the most delicate tone, and I have never seen him pick with anything but his fingertips.
Who in the world has ever thought of a silly idea like putting metal things on the fingertips for playing this wonderful instrument?

Bruno
[This message was edited by Bruno Rasmussen on 25 April 2003 at 12:20 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 25 Apr 2003 11:23 am

Personally, I've found that I get a much more even attack volume with picks. It's hard to keep my fingernails in shape for playing bare-fingered.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 25 Apr 2003 11:39 am

I think Mark Knopfler's technique is irrelevant to steel guitar. He's not trying to get the same sound that a steel guitarist tries to get. The bottom line, I think, is what is the sound you have in your ear that attracts you to steel guitar? You'll get a brighter, sharper tone with picks than with your fingers. If you like the rounder, softer tone of flesh, go for it. If you want to sound like Ralph Mooney, then you'll get there a lot easier with picks, etc. I advise my students to try picks for a while; they can always give them up later, but at least you'll be familiar with the tonal difference you'll get from them, and then you can choose to use them when you want "that sound", like a choice of a technique or an effect pedal in your bag of tricks. But please don't mix up Knopfler and Emmons: they don't play the same instrument. Horowitz didn't use picks on his piano, either.

Peter Siegel · Post by **Peter Siegel** » 25 Apr 2003 11:43 am

But look what Horowitz did with just 3 pedals!

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 25 Apr 2003 11:44 am

I feel a "tone" thread coming on!!!

There is no question that you get a certain "skin tone" with no picks that you cannot get with picks. I think you can communicate more emotion in your playing without picks, however, the advantages to using picks (as b0b pointed out) are real.

Jeff Beck uses bare fingers on his strat and his tone and execution are awesome!

Terry

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 25 Apr 2003 12:33 pm

Why decide one way or the other right now? Do both for long enough and the answer will come to you. I haven't decided yet either, and it sure is easier to take something off of my regular guitar and learn it on steel when I don't have to stop and put the picks on. The blisters that happen when I overdo it are a bummer, but then I just play with picks till they go away.

Don McClellan · Post by **Don McClellan** » 25 Apr 2003 12:39 pm

I agree with Jim Cohen. But I'll bet that alot of players do what I do. That is, I use picks on my index and middle finger but I often pick a few notes here and there with my bare ring finger. I'm very comfortable doing that and the tone is not noticably different. Also, without picks, harmonics would be very difficult I think.

Ernie Renn · Post by **Ernie Renn** » 25 Apr 2003 1:32 pm

Bruno;
I didn't specify a length of time, only to say it was a while back. He went back to picks because he broke a fingernail. Since that was a few years ago, I suspect his nail has grown back. Listen to the archive of the 4/12/03 Johnny Bush Midnite Jamboree and listen to Buddy's tone.

Sounds great to me!

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My best,
Ernie

The Official Buddy Emmons Website
www.buddyemmons.com

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 25 Apr 2003 2:06 pm

I have been listening to a boxed set of Loggins and Messina the last few weeks.

I am just so amazed at the tone Jim Messina consistantly got without picks. So pretty.

And also at how well the albums stand up theses days too. Brilliant arranging... even if there is only one cut with dobro and no PSG... Re-elevated to my favoraite band from that time. ( so it topic shift, sue me, or start another thread for this.)

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 25 Apr 2003 2:26 pm

Hi Bruno,

Back on your questions...
Why did fingerpicks get started? Volume or loudness, I guess. Hawaiian, Dobro, b*njo, etc. I have watched Bob Brozman play his Nationals with plastic finger picks. They are LOUD.

But with electricity, we don't have to pick so hard to be heard.

I know this is a pedal steel topic so I'll drift back on topic.

Ever try the Pro Piks for fingers? You can feel the string with the flesh and use (or not) the steel band for attack. Saves fingernails.

Ron

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Stringmaster T8, Benoit 8, National Tricone

Bruno Rasmussen · Post by **Bruno Rasmussen** » 25 Apr 2003 2:41 pm

Hi
Thank you for your replies! My main concern still is the consequences (possible limits?) in matters of technique! If I dislike the tone I’m getting without picks I hopefully am clever enough to put them picks back on.
Ron, I have never heard of Pro Piks. Where can I get more information?

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 25 Apr 2003 7:36 pm

I've played guitar for the last thirty years without picks - electric or acoustic - but have always used picks for steel.

For me, at least, it's dictated by string-gauges; PSG strings are pretty heavy (if they weren't, the weight of the bar would affect pitch too much) and it's harder to get the string moving without a pick. I'm able to play six-string without them as I use relatively lighter strings. I've long preferred the sound of bare fingers on strings anyway.

I sometimes force myself to practice steel without them so that I wouldn't be at a total loss if I lost my picks on the way to work, but I can't say that I enjoy it much!

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Roger Rettig

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 25 Apr 2003 8:16 pm

Here is a link for the ProPiks. http://www.tone-toys.com/de/db472.html
Ron

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 26 Apr 2003 12:17 am

I've been using the Propiks. You can bend then to really match your fingers and get a good angle on the strings, plus some tactile sensation also.

Leslie Ehrlich · Post by **Leslie Ehrlich** » 26 Apr 2003 1:44 am

For me, no picks = no twang. I like that.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 26 Apr 2003 1:58 am

Janet Davis Music has the Pro Piks in the US: they're called "Fingertone." http://www.janetdavismusic.com/finpiks.html

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 26 Apr 2003 5:30 am

the similarity that i find between BE and MK,
aside for the fact that they both great Musicians, is that they both have the Power of the Thumb.

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 26 Apr 2003 5:54 am

For 95% of everything I do, I use the thumb and fingerpicks on both lead guitar and steel. On guitar you can get a very funky type tone with the side of the bare thumb and digging in under the strings with the bare fingers. On steel I always use the thumbpick but sometimes take off the fingerpicks for some Travis style things as for me it's cleaner that way. I don't think I could ever get much speed up without all three picks though........JH

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Michael Holland · Post by **Michael Holland** » 26 Apr 2003 6:14 am

I've never heard Mark Knopfler or Jeff Beck play pedal steel. Like Roger, I use the traditional plastic thumbpick and metal fingerpicks for steel, dobro and lap. I use a flatpick for six string and often palm the flatpick and play with fingernails.

Consider the vast difference in the techniques of the two instruments. With six string, blocking is an interaction of both hands. On PSG, blocking is accomplished solely by the picking hand only. Roger, I sure hope I don't lose my picks, either! I loved the post by our fellow Forumite Gary Morrison who owns the natural maple wraparound owned by Buddy. Click Here. The spare picks wrapped around the crossbars so many years ago are still there.

Colin Keyworth · Post by **Colin Keyworth** » 26 Apr 2003 8:03 am

I was watching the Dire Straits-Alchemy video the other night & i noticed M.K. playing with a flat pick.This is the first & only time i've ever seen him do this.Just thought i'd chip in

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Sho-Bud LDGsp,levinson Blade,Peavey session 400 Limited,Boss GT-3

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 26 Apr 2003 8:19 am

On PSG, blocking is accomplished solely by the picking hand only.

I guess I do it wrong, then. I often block individual strings with the thumb of my left hand. I thought everyone did that!

Regarding fingertip playing, I've never been able to get the hang of playing without a thumb pick. The fleshy edge of my thumb has no attack, and I don't want to change my thumb technique.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Michael Holland · Post by **Michael Holland** » 26 Apr 2003 8:30 am

You're right, Bobby. And, of course, we move the bar laterally forward and backward to 'cover' the strings as needed. My point is that both hands have a much different role for each instrument.[This message was edited by Michael Holland on 26 April 2003 at 09:31 AM.]

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 26 Apr 2003 9:00 am

The old Pros used both hands for muting (blocking), sometimes even picking up the bar. What do you think of that? So many techniques, Amazing...al

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 26 Apr 2003 12:23 pm

I play a nylon string guitar without picks, but without thumb pick it's a different hand position that is not as flat to the strings and not as good for palm blocking (but of course the finger blocking is better). For steel string guitar I have always used three finger picks and a metal thumb pick for good volume (never learned to flat pick). When I took up Dobro I just kept the same picks. Dobro is hard to amplify without feedback, either with a mike or an acoustic pickup, so you still need picks even if you electrify. WhenI took up pedal steel I kept the same four metal picks. I sometimes switch between Dobro and pedal steel, sometimes in the same song. I wouldn't want to change picks. At jams I will also sometimes pick up a six-string (regular or slide) and sing. So I just keep the same four metal picks for everything. I think you just get a better sound with picks on steel strings, and maybe can pick a little cleaner too.

Bruno Rasmussen · Post by **Bruno Rasmussen** » 27 Apr 2003 3:05 am

Thank you for your posts, I appreciate your interest, though only few are responding to the questions in my original post.
The Knopfler/Emmons headline was a metaphor, not a comparison. Both are great musicians - and icons making the rules. Back then, when Mr. Knopfler entered the scene, leadguitar was played with flatpick and generally effects enveloped the sound of the instrument to an extend that made it barely recognizable. What a relief for the ears to hear him.
Now let me take a guess – If Mr. Emmons had played the steel guitar without picks! – Today most of us would play without these picks, and not many would even question it.
Some of you assume that naturally my aims should be Nashville Steel Guitar sound.
Where I live, Nashville is not just around the corner, and countrymusic is not one of the musical traditions. What I am trying, in my humble way, is to approach the steel guitar as an instrument, not just a country instrument. The fact that not many have responded to the actual, and serious meant, questions in my post, could lead one to the assumption that in fact, not very many of the readers so far, have serious experiences in developing right hand technique without picks.
I’m not professional and I am not in a band. The instrument is a real challenge and I sometime wonder why so much effort and so little result keep me hanging round. By now I could have been accordion virtuoso.

[This message was edited by Bruno Rasmussen on 27 April 2003 at 04:31 AM.]