Bird's eye view of a fishtailing bar

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 16 Apr 2003 2:07 pm

S.G.Members,

The tendency to "fishtail" the bar
and be noticeably off pitch, is all too common. The nose can be right on" the desired fret, while the other end is pitifully off center. Surprised? No need to be. Make the test with the tuner. Try checking the accuracy of your bar placement at frets 1, 2, and 3. If the tuner reveals perfect pitch on strings 3 & 10, there is not a problem. It is doubtful that this will always be found when there is quite a tendency to "fishtail" the bar as a player would on "straight" or "lap" steel.

Bill H.

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 16 Apr 2003 5:27 pm

"FISHTAIL"........ interesting.

I've witnessed countless steel players that simply cannot place a bar straight at any chord position.....at any given time.

Lazy players? Bent bar? Crooked guitar neck? I have no idea.

But it sure sounds terrible when they start mashing pedals while playing with a crooked bar and out of tune pedals.

Gino Iorfida · Post by **Gino Iorfida** » 16 Apr 2003 6:07 pm

I would think the 'fishtailing bar' problem would be something else to address with your 'vertical fretboard' Bill.
Therefor, the verticla fretboard would have to be 'in addition to' opposed to 'in place of' a conventional fretboard.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 16 Apr 2003 9:49 pm

Gentlemen,

It is appreciated that there is some agreement that accurate bar placement above the fret requires great efforts to resolve the inadequacy. The same holds true for each effort of playing pedal steel accordingly. Proper bar pressure on the strings, volume swell, timing, effects, pedal and knee lever action, etc. are among the many good attributes found in a player's style, who has earned acclaim as to having a great sound. Lack of proper bar placement will also contribute to the overall "out of tune" delivery by a player who is allowing the bar to "fishtail" 5 or 10 cents.

Bill H.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 17 Apr 2003 12:11 am

Bill.

In all seriousness there is a phenomenom that is peculiar to the pedal steel guitar.

It is a semi-involuntary action that adjusts bar placement at a final destination. It is done soley by the ear.

In the end analysis, visual markers can simply NOT help this "fine tuning".

All the visual markers serve as is an approximation of location to let the ear take over controlling the bar through the neuromuscular system.

I say this casually perhaps, but it is an undisputed fact from where I sit.

"Bar Fishtail" is similar.

If I, or another player that has, say, 25 yrs of working experience, am doing a certain split, be it an octave, a root fifth, slant, or other multi string chord, after years of experience, a persons' hand will make this adjustment. I watch myself do it all the time. Often I will just do it until I can slip up and tune the offending change or string up or down a little. Usually it's because something bumped one of my tuner knobs. Sometimes it's just an anomaly that occurs from the string windings, or a little bugger in the changer.

NON PEDAL PLAYERS HAVE BEEN MAKING FLAWLESS "FISHTAILS" FOR DECADES WITHOUT ANY POSSIBLE WAY TO "SEE" WHAT THEY"RE AIMING AT AT ANY GIVEN FRET.

You'll see others that are not as "refined" merely wiggle the bar, much like an unsure vocalist will habitually use "vibrato". MOST "vibrato" is a bad habit. (Buddy Charleton told me this 25 years ago. I've found him to be right.)

You see Bill, the thing you are "hinting" at "inventing" has already been invented.

The human brain, and neuromuscular system was designed many years ago by THE master inventor.

Limitations borne of mechanical inconsistencies and tensile limitations can only be refined to a reasonable level.

This, since the advent of the Sho~Bud Pro III, which includes many fine precise and reliable guitars, such as the Emmons Push Pull, MSA, ZUM, Carter, ZB, and dozens more with accurate stop returns and accurately and consistently marked fretboards, has put the limitations soley within the individuals' neuromuscular response.

If what you are suggesting is so, then presumbly a brand new "surgically precise" MSA with a vetical fretboard, and some indicator that would flash when a bar was "fishtailing" or otherwise giving out an inconsistent galvanic response to a (yet uninvented) "stability indicator", then you would be faced with a stark reality:

Certain people would be able to play it better than others. Some not at all. Some people would go out and get gigs every week. Some would not. Sometimes length of a player's practical application would refine the process. Sometimes sadly it would not.

From the opposite end of the spectrum, it is not unlike J Paul Getty's Theory, whereby a month after taking ALL the worlds' wealth away from the people that had it, the same people would have it back.

If you took away ALL the fretboard markers, on ALL pedal steel guitars the SAME people would be out playing, getting gigs, playing in tune, and on time. (For the first month or two though, you'd find that the blind players would be getting all the good jobs.)

I can guartanfriggintee it.

P.S. Sometimes, Bill "A Thing" is only "What it is" and nothing more.

( sighs )

EJL [This message was edited by Eric West on 17 April 2003 at 01:04 PM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 17 Apr 2003 2:34 am

Eric W.,

Thank you for the excellent outpouring of great thoughts. I would be remiss however, should I not try to at least challenge a few of the concepts, that may lead one to believe that all is well on the homefront. First of all in all fairness, please allow that an underdeveloped concept, can be improved upon through intervals of trial and error. Try to envision extended raised fretboards which have no inner boundaries, such as those found on present day steel guitars. In place of the existing fretboards, the new version would extend to the very front edges of the steel guitars. A fretboard length slot would have been previously cut on an angle, to facilitate the insertion of a narrow fretboard target, measuring between 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch in height. The standard fretboard concept would still exist, and would extend beyond its present range, all the way to the angled, upward mini-fretboard. The player would then enjoy a clear view at all times of his/her positioning of the bar.

I would enjoy a lively exchange on the "fishtail" theory that brought forth your reply, which strongly indicates that the concept is related more to an automatic response, to true up the bar by ear. Eyes are quite often more reliable than ears, to observe differences within musical checkpoints. Furthermore, tuners are wonderful tools of the trade to maintain a desired pitch. The delicate response of the tuner will add credence to the "fishtail" theory.

Bill H. [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 17 April 2003 at 11:18 AM.]

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 17 Apr 2003 8:13 am

I've removed my fretboard completely and have modified it to create a "stencil".
Once strings are replaced and up to pitch, I stencil the frets directly onto the strings.
Works for me.
I got the idea from watching a guy use that powder blue string stuff to mark straight lines on the street and then paint straight white lines to create parking stalls.
Go Figer?!?
[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 17 April 2003 at 09:14 AM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 17 Apr 2003 11:21 am

Bill: Thank you for providing me a forum in which to put some of my more aesthetic and theoretical thoughts down. It helps me refine my thinking process, as well as honing my skills, framing a multi-layered response.

"Eyes are quite often more reliable than ears, to observe differences within musical checkpoints."

I disagree with this premise, though not totally, insofar as your inclusion of the qualifying word "often".

"Furthermore, tuners are wonderful tools of the trade to maintain a desired pitch."

IMHO, tuners are only necessary to "check" the pitch at times when the ear cannot be relied apon. They are indeed "wonderful tools", much as a laser level is to the Mason, however, they do not supplant the "Skill of the Bricklayer" ( however acquired and/or refined).

"The delicate response of the tuner will add credence to the "fishtail" theory."

I must take exeption to this premise.

I have carefully re-read your post.

I don't see a "theory". More a statement of a collection of observations. If my experience serves me, a "theory" must at least frame a certain set of constants, and if not a "solution", at least a concrete statement of cause=effect.

I'm sticking with the "God/Emmons" theory.

Pete:

"Oh No...."

( Doug said you guys were great as usual.)

Thanks, Bill, for your forbearance, cooperation, and continued support. In advance, if that is indeed the case.

EJL

Perrenial Student of the Cosmos.

Gino Iorfida · Post by **Gino Iorfida** » 17 Apr 2003 11:31 am

In no way was I poking fun at your 'vertical fretboard' idea, I was just wondering if this is what made you notice the fishtailing effect, since you have stated you removed the 'standard' fretboard to prove to yourself that it is a good idea etc. I think however, that all 'fretboards' are only guidelines, since they all have their 'issues (i.e. standard fretboard, you have parrallax issues, the vertical fretboard, you don't have parallax, but I would see that the fishtailing problem would be more of an issue (how will you know your bar is perpendicular to the strings etc).. and a combination of both, you have a better chance)... but I agree, that the ears and muscles need to be trained in all aspects.

Most nights when I'm playing 6 string, I can go a whole gig w/o ever looking at the neck-- PROVIDED I"m using either my Telecaster that I have had since 1990, or my Hamer that I have had since 1985... give me my strat, or my les paul (which I've only had 3 years and 2 years respecitvely),and i'm looking)... in other words, I know every inch of the neck of either of these guitars, I know my hand position etc just like on my steel, I KNOW where the 'a' pedal is instinctively etc.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 17 Apr 2003 12:17 pm

Bill H.,
WHEN YOU GONNA QUIT SMOKIN' THAT STUFF???

<<<EOM>>>

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 17 Apr 2003 1:30 pm

Gino,

Thank you for your concern. It isn't difficult to ascertain a storm is brewing, or a big gust of hot air is about to blow. I've been trying to introduce the fretboard extension, plus the angled upright mini-fretboard. I don't need further proof that it has advantages above and beyond the standard fretboard. The actual fret lines would be much wider on the proposed extended raised fretboard. It would be similar to removing a blindfold.

Bill H.

Eddie Malray · Post by **Eddie Malray** » 17 Apr 2003 1:42 pm

Maybe the "Fishtailing" is the result of giving the volume pedal to much gas.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 17 Apr 2003 4:49 pm

Bill,
to be serious for a minute, no matter HOW wide the fret lines would be, the bar , being circular(thus, no matter what the diameter),would only touch the string at a point, actually much narrower than ANY existing fret-marker, whether upright, flat, painted on, or tattooed.
So basically, we are at the mercy of our ears, no matter what gadget you invent. Like violinists, or anyone else who plays a non-fretted stringed instrument, the ear is, and always will be, the most important accessory
we possess. And, IMHO, developing one's ear
is much more important than seeing where the bar is.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 17 Apr 2003 5:34 pm

Stephen G.

Thanks Steve for the opening. Are you inferring that you can meander between the 12th and 24th fret comfortably, and not be concerned about the lack of visual advantage at those high registers? Claiming that all one has to do is listen for the correct pitches is farfetched, I M H O. The angled mini-fretboard is the surest bet that you'll be over the desired fret.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 17 Apr 2003 6:42 pm

I bet that "fish tailing bar" gets to smelling pretty rank if you play very long in the hot sunshine!

I'm going to talk to Willy Dunlop and see if I can get him to design a new "Fish tail style bar". I think a hinge in the center would do the trick, It would help to get a lot more licks without having to add knee levers!

Jerry Byrd "fishtails" the bar, only he calls it "Slants and Reverses". He does it on perpose too! Ray Montee will tell you that. (and a bunch of other stuff!)[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 17 April 2003 at 07:46 PM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 17 Apr 2003 10:18 pm

Bobbe S.

Some of the best sounds heard around Nashville, Tn., were those played on straight steel by Jerry Byrd. Suddenly in the 50's, the move to pedals put a crimp in the bar slants, as there was no longer any need, other than special effects, to do so. When a well known late vocalist saw J.B. working in a drug store, he said to him, " Jerry, you should move to Hawaii, people would love you over there." The rest is history.
I think Herb R. is one of the most impressive "bar slanters" in America today.

Nevertheless, fishtailing the bar inadvertently, in effect, produces a vague off key drone that listeners will move away from. By the same token, they will crowd around a player who skillfully maintains near perfect pitch.
Who would know better than you Bobbe?

Bill H.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 18 Apr 2003 4:33 am

Eric W.

After going over your diversified critique, I settled on the word "theory", as an example to defend my choice of diction. "Theory" implies nothing more than speculation. It's interesting that you've found a deeper meaning for its usage. Would you agree that it depends entirely on the subject matter, which is for the most part the erroneous placement of the bar, albeit the individual is unaware of the poor positioning, of said bar?

It is quite necessary to maintain perfect right angles in reference to bar and fretboard, particularly while playing on the E9th tuning. Jerry B's 6th tuning allows for squiggly movements, and when used in combination with harmonics, his sound is incomparable. Therefore, this "fishtailing" or crude positioning of the bar lessens the performers creditability, due to the vague variations of desired pitches.

Bill H.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 18 Apr 2003 5:21 am

I guess I'm saying that I do agree with your observations,for the most part.

I'm wondering what your point is?

Is it that "standard fretboards" are not relevant because they are at right angles?

If that's the case Pete's going to have to re-mark his strings..

Thank you.

EJL

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 18 Apr 2003 7:21 am

But what about the smell?

Know how to keep a fish from smelling?
Answer: Cut it's nose off!

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 18 Apr 2003 8:57 am

Bobbe,

The inconsequential fish odor is trivial compared to the reckless abandon of bar manipulation, particularly the "fishtail" tendency that occurs when the bar is swerved.

Bill H.

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 18 Apr 2003 9:29 am

Bill.......a word of caution. Don't mess with tired ole Earache's mind....as he is a DEEP, Deep, deep kinda guy. Okay? His basic desire is to pave over the world.
and Pete, the guitar guy, you always looked so introverted, quiet and shy. What an approach! Another great invention!

Moving now to Jerry Byrd. All this stuff about fret boards and "eyes being better or more reliable than ears".....uhmmmm

Have you EVER tried playing an all BLACK prewar Rickenbacher Bakelite minus fret markers or mirrors, or whatever, on a brightly lit stage in a night club or truck stop or where ever and then have someone dim the lights?
If YOU are "an EYE person"....you will be done for the evening! It takes some minutes just for the night vision to recover from the bright lights........and with frets unmarked on the old Bakelites what would YOU do? Jerry Byrd has played in just about every "eye"setting and I'm sure, an equally number of "ear" settings. He survived! I wonder how he managed to do it? By the way, unless Jerry Byrd has crossed over, isn't he still in the United States? or what?
Many an aircraft crash has been determined to be the result of the "eye syndrome" rather
than the accuracy of the ear.
Before pedal steel guitars and brightly designed fret markers that dance in "black light" or iluminated fret boards, or whatever
real musicians played very well. They lead "us" to where we find ourselves today.
I'm NOT AGAINST invention, and commend you for your drive and creativity but when someone attempts to rewrite history (as being done in some of our higher institutions of learning?) or directing the masses down a deadend road with possibly inaccurate information it does make me question the basis for it.
Electronic gimmicks and gadgets for the eye cannot replace the acquired musical knowledge, professional technique and skills of a great musician. Proof: THose that tune electronically and then play out of tune all evening, knowing that they were once in tune with "the gadget" or "thing-a-ma-jig".[This message was edited by Ray Montee on 18 April 2003 at 10:35 AM.]

Roy Ayres · Post by **Roy Ayres** » 18 Apr 2003 9:36 am

Ray:

Amen! I once stood beside Jerry in one of the studios at WSM during a rehersal in the 40's and carried on a conversation with him while ne never looked at the steel and never missed a note.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 18 Apr 2003 12:12 pm

Mr. Hankey,
The only thing I'm "inferring" from your posts, is that you enjoy using words with complete disregard for their definitions!
I AM, however, implying, that one's ears play a far greater role in playing an instrument, than do one's eyes! Read Ron Ayre's post about Jerry Byrd, if you have time.
I like many others on the Forum, applaud your efforts and attempts to tame this beast we call a pedal steel guitar. But PLEASE, don't create a problem, where none existed before! Your verbosity does little to help, either. There are other Forumites, such as Herb Steiner, Eric West, even the late Marty Pollard, who can, and have, proven their lexicographical equality, if not superiority.
Your wordy posts just confuse the rest of us.
"See, what you do is, is you put on them picks, and you pick some strings, and you mash some pedals, and you move your knees back and forth..."
from "Steel Guitar Made Easy," by Mike Bagwell

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 18 Apr 2003 3:34 pm

Ray M.,

The old 1935 Rickenbacher, or if you prefer the name Rickenbacker, featured the casted aluminum body, with a 25" scale. Casted by an independent casting company, the neck, frets, and body were casted as one. The most noticeable feature of the guitar are those frets. The early lap steels were equipped with frets, modern day steel guitars are equipped with frets, but mine isn't. There is really no need for the frets if an angular fretboard is right at the tip of a players bar. For those who can carry on a conversation while playing, or play in a dark room, the absence of fretting should not be a problem. And what of the trusted ear, that will guide you instantly to the desired position? I've worked out a new method for checking, and coping with the "fishtail" concept. To determine whether or not you have fallen into the bad habit of fishtailing, place a bright lamp on the right side of the steel guitar.
Watch for the tiny reflected shiny spots on the strings at the right side of the bar. They will appear as small reflections, about 1/4 "
from the base of the bar. Take note to see if they are in perfect alignment. The reflections will appear vividly on the treble strings. The bright dots should be parallel with the visible fret, which is a half step to the right of the bar. If the dots are slightly angled, consider righting the bar for best results.

Bill H.
[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 18 April 2003 at 06:07 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 18 Apr 2003 4:59 pm

(burp)

It's all perfectly clear.

It was right in front of me all along.

Finally.

EJL