The Steel Guitar Forum

I would like to know how many of you can listen to a song with no tab and no sheetmusic; or chord charts of any kind; and can write down the chords to most any song you do not already know?

To start it off, I will say I cannot do it, even on simple ones. My ears just trick me all the time. In a word I epitomize the ole saying "tin ear".

How bout you? I pray I am among the very few (I perceive) who have this difficulty.

carl

I usually can, and sometimes it's a little tricky to tell of the 2 or 6 chords are major or minor. Sometimes if there's a doubt on a song that I need for a gig, I just figure on doing a "root/fifth" and letting some other hapless lead player fill in the third.

"Suspend Everything. You can only be a semitone off". -EW-

On chord charts, I usually try to trace them when possible.

EJL

I usually do this with the help of a guitar; I play a section of the record and write down the chords I am sure of. Then the trickier chords need some more work.
It also helps to understand chord sequences, so you know what the next chord might be, even if you have not heard it yet. And of course, the circle of 5ths helps too.
When I am playing as a guest in a band, I always position myself in such a way that I can see the guitar players' left hand. It works like tab for me.

Just for fun, I suggest you ask a guitar or piano player to play chords for you, and you try to guess the chords. Start simple, then gradually use more difficult songs and include the recordings of the songs as well. I ruined many 78 and LP records this way. It was worth it.

Hope you find someone to play for you.
Good luck!


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Great topic.
I had lots of practice in college music classes, and playing 6 nights a week. I still get fooled.

I am ok with just pencil and paper and fairly simple progressions using the usual suspects I,IV,V,VI,II and the I,vi,ii,iii,IV,V kind of progressions. If I have the recording I can usually find it by singing it while playing a piano or a six string guitar.

Jeff Newman's seminar in Dallas featured this very subject. Listen to a band track and write down the chords. He had a some tough ones. To follow up, he had the charts prepared with numbers. He has a CD of the Super Song. The Super Song had about 8 verses, 16 bars each. Each verse was a different progression in the same key. It gets easier with practice. It is a great exercise.

Ron

Well, I can play a lot of chords that I can't name, so writing those down is kinda out of the question! I can recognize most basic structures, though, and write them down or play them. When you get to more complex chords like D#7th+13#11+9, I'm lost. I'm basically a "lick player" who can also do the melody in simple chords.

A lot of what we do is back-up work, so you have to be good at doing "licks", too! If all you can do is "play the melody", you won't get much session work, IMHO.

Chords OR MELODY -- no problem putting both on paper in notation form (I have'nt read tab since I was 12). It's the end product of Ear Training, gained only by much practice and experience...HJ

An old trick (we/us/me) bass players turned guitar/steel players use is: many times the first bass note played when the chord changes is the root note of that chord. That is, each time the chord changes, the bass note played is the root note of the new chord. This method won't tell you if the chord is a major, minor, 7th, etc., but it is a good indicator of the root notation.
Sorry if this explaination sound confusing, it's coming from an ex-bass man.

I can usually 'see' the chord progression in my head as I listen to a song once, twice,
or a few times.

12-bar blues follow basic structures. Ragtime follows certain patterns. Same with
country, folk, rock.

Sure there are quirky and varied chords
to some progressions,
but they all move in a certain pattern.

In the key of C, for example, you can count on running across an F, G, Am, Em, Dm and C;
and all minors and 7ths of those chords. At least. In any key.

So what I'm trying to simplify is that once you've played many varied styles and are familiar with their unique structure and you hear a new song, you can almost immediately pick out the influences, and then begin to look for obvious patterns of those genres.

This then should point you quickly to the chord progression. Many quirks and unpredictable chords are quite often present in otherwise 'standard'-type progressions, and this fact makes so many
songs have that something special that makes them stand out as unique.

Another way is, if you've played a lot of stuff for a long time, you just can have a song figured out that quickly [basically]. Lyrics, turnarounds, hooks etc., and other details will obviously take more time to learn.

FWIW...Chip<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by CHIP FOSSA on 06 April 2003 at 07:10 PM.]</p></FONT>

I listen to and for relative changes. I too use the guitar more often than the Steel for charting songs off records .

tp<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 07 April 2003 at 05:57 AM.]</p></FONT>

I can.

This is why knowing your scales and a little theory is important. If you know what chords are in a scale and what the expected progression could be, it narrows down the possibilities of what the chord, that you don't know, might be. Other times, mediant progressions, I - IIImaj or I - bIIImaj have a very distinct sound to them. Or perhaps you are expecting to go to V and there's another chord in front of it, it's probably a II. Stuff like that.

As long as the bass is playing the correct changes, the steel can get away with a lot of substitutions, even if you weren't planning on playing a substitution at that point, just keep moving until you figure out where you are and everyone will think you know what you're doing.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by chas smith on 06 April 2003 at 08:52 PM.]</p></FONT>

...

I'm working on some tunes right now as I took a break to read this. I mostly hear them right off and don't even bother to write the chords down unless I'm making a chart. I've got 11 tunes to learn for tomorrows rehearsal and have a question pertaining to this subject; Do you learn all the parts even though you don't play them all or just the ones you're required to play? What if you have to solo in a part you haven't worked on because the piano player isn't there or maybe the fiddle player? I always learn it all whether I play on it or not. That way just in case something untold happens I'll be prepared to play the part if needed. Some of these tunes I'm working on tonight only have some chimes and that's about all and some are mostly acoustic.

I can. I began listening to music on the radio at night when I was only 4 (country and early R&R then, later all kinds) and I distinctly remember really paying close attention (believe it or not) to how different chords had different "feels", such as the difference between major, minor, major 7th, etc., and how harmonies followed the melody. I didn't play anything then but I listened close. I started playing when I was 7. When I was 17 I played guitar with a organist who had his bench full of fakebooks. We played lots of VFW and Moose lodges, they'd request stuff from the '20's on up, he'd pull out his fakebooks and sightread anything. I couldn't even see the charts from where I sat, so I had to listen and anticipate and try to find QUICK whatever changes he played to all kinds of old songs including lots of big-band stuff. It gave me great ear-training. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 06 April 2003 at 11:12 PM.]</p></FONT>

I too agree with Tom Campell. Train yourself to listen more closely to the bass part. Imerse yourself in what the good bass players are doing. Since steel is not used that much as a solo self-accompanyment type instrument, I don't think alot of players (especially E9)get much experience playing the bass note of the progressions they're playing over.

Like others here, I can work stuff out easier on standard guitar than on steel, just because I'm much more familiar with it. Country, pop and rock tunes are MUCH easier for me than jazz; I'm in awe of people who can hear and then play the extended chords used in some of the genre. Some jazz songs actually started as technical exercises designed to use passing tones, and the changes seem almost incomprehensible from a harmony standpoint.

Carl,
I hesitate to say this, because it sounds so egotistical, and, Lord, I do NOT want people to think that I am "Strutting my Stuff". But, as a NEW song is playing that I never have heard before, I "Chart" the chords in my head as it plays.
When I worked at Emmons, I was helping Jim Acoth with his steel playing, and he brings me a tape of Hal playing "Lifes' Railway to heaven". I had NEVER heard it before, and I sat down and said, "He's' at the 24th fret, Blah, Blah, Blah, and JIm said...How do you do that, just sit and take off? It is a GIFT FROM GOD. That is all I can say. And I am happy to be blessed, BUT, IT CAN BE A CURSE if your ear is THAT SHARP. It can drive you nuts if you have an ear that can pick out 2 strings that is 2 "cents" off.

What it amounts to is learning and memorizing INTERVALS. A PhD I know at the University tells his students to learn the first 2 notes of a song as a starting place: e.g., Stars Spangled Banner begins with a minor 3rd (F down to D); Tenn. Waltz, a minor 2nd (C up to D), etc. ---HJ

Sorry! Tenn. Waltz=maj. 2nd. HJ

Not because I started this thread, but the responses so far have made this thread the most interesting (to me) of any thread I have ever read on here. I cannot begin to tell you the revelations that have come to bear as I read the "I can" and other incredible (to me) talents you folks have.

Ron Preston said,

"It is a GIFT FROM GOD"

And of course I believe this with all my heart.

Here are some facts........

I do NOT have it. Never have had, never will have. AFTER I have learned a song (which sometimes takes a tremendous amount of work on my part), I do a half way decent job playing it. Some have said, "that was beautiful carl!". If they ONLY knew how hard I worked to play the simplest songs.

But I simply can NOT do what you fellows do soooo effortlessly. I fall into the category of what Ron said about Jim Aycoth. I have NOT a clue where a player is or what chord is being played UNTIL I have laboriously sat down and learned it by hunting and pecking sometimes for days and weeks. That is why playing in a band would be shear horror for me.

Yet I have ears that can hear a 1 cent drop on the 6th string when the A pedal is engaged; that absolutely drive me insane.

Somewhere God chose to create my brain with some missing links (I know I know, and the same goes for you bubba!! ) Seriously, in one million years I could NEVER sit and listen to a song on the radio and tell you what chords were being played and WHEN the chord changes.

Sadly I have tried with all my heart and soul to do it. But it is just not there. I envy each of you. Would to God I could do it. But I can't. This thread has proven to me something I knew all this time.

I was NOT born to play music. But God richly bless all of you who have been give this talent that I have dreamed of having for over 60 years.

I am not complaining. God gave each unique talents, and I am blessed of course. But music was NOT one of them when it came time for his passsing them out when I was conceived.

May Jesus continue to bring each of you joy with your incredible talents. And please, don't ever forget to thank him for it. You have NO idea how wonderful it is. I KNOW from whence I speak.

carl

<SMALL>I could NEVER sit and listen to a song on the radio and tell you what chords were being played. </SMALL>

Ican't either Carl,one reason is, the stations play the song faster than normal so they can play more songs.I can usually establish a I,IV,V progession but not the actual key of the song they are doing.Other than that you and I are in the same boat,the hunt and peck boat.
Ray

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Steeling is still legal in Arizona

well put Carl

some of us are born with the abilty "Built In" it's not talent, it's just the luck of the draw (and God's will)

Pat and I both have this ability, so let's extend the question a little further ..........

how many can write down the NEXT 2 bars after hearing the first 8 ?
this is surely "Time Travel" but some of us do do it !!
(Actually I think it's probably an extended process of elimination based on memory and comprehension)

Basil Henriques.
www.waikiki-islanders.com


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<SMALL>Steel players do it without fretting</SMALL>

http://www.waikiki-islanders.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Carl, I'm really touched by your post. Just don't forget as you yourself said, "God gave each unique talents". I'm absolutely sure that what the "I cans" have and you lack, you more than make up for in other ways. Besides, I've heard some guys who say they "have to struggle for every note" sometimes playing better music because they really have put a lot of work into it, than some of the guys who it comes to very easily, who don't have to work at it so hard, and don't.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 07 April 2003 at 07:19 AM.]</p></FONT>

Back in the 50’s I worked on the road for a couple of years with Jimmy McDaniels, an accomplished alto sax man who had a degree in music theory and whose father was a professor of music at a college in Birmingham. We had a “game” we played while traveling that was a great exercise in chord analysis or chord identification. We would find a good jazz station on the car radio and take turns calling chords as they were played. For simplicity, we always called the chords assuming the key was C -- although, obviously, we listened for intervals regardless of the key. Jimmy would call the chords on one song and I would critique him. Then on the next song we would reverse roles. It was great training, especially for me, as I knew Jimmy had the background and ear to be “correct” almost 100% of the time. If I called a C6 and Jimmy said it was an Amin7, then it was an Amin7. Of course, the root played by the bass determined which it was, and Jimmy could sense the root, even if it was not to clear on the little car radio speaker. If you want to develop your talents in this area, that is an excellent way to do it. I feel that this is a talent that you should try very hard to develop as a professional. (Incidentally, Jimmy went on to become guest conductor of the Cincinnati Philharmonic two to three times each year. A great teacher – and free!)

...all of the above comments strike a chord with me (pun intended)...because for many years I have been unable to just sit and enjoy "listening" to music unless it is something that I already know. I know this is not unique to me because I have heard other steelers say the same.

Especially annoying to me is that I have the same problem at the steel shows....even though I don't want to, in my mind I play along with whoever is on stage and after a couple of sets I have to get away, and outside somewhere to relax and get away from it!

...because, if it is a new or unfamiliar song, I automatically go into "rehearsal mode" and begin "charting" the chord changes in my mind just in case I unexpectably have to play it somewhere, sometime.

Hopefully, now that I am reaching the end of my playing days and seriously considering "hanging it up", maybe I will soon be able to just relax and listen to music without the pressure to play "off the top" and something unfamiliar will no longer be a factor.

If someone will play the first ride on something I've never heard before....I've usually got it! www.genejones.com <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 07 April 2003 at 09:03 AM.]</p></FONT>