The Steel Guitar Forum

From your guitar, execution is what separated one player from another. Thanks BS for finally bringing an end to this never ending discussion on the forum and amoung steel players everywhere.

If Bobbe was wrong we could all play a 2 X 4 with bailing wire through a 5 watt amp and be happy hapy happy. But he is not wrong and that is proven by how much stuff guys buy all of the time to improve there "tone".

Finally this old horse is dead, thankd BS.

Larry Behm

Bobbe has tone, therefore he is!

I agree,

I have read numerous post over the years that said "tone was all in the hands". I didn't believe it then, and I don't now.

Of course hands do play a large role in the tone a given player gets. But there are myriads of other things that affect tone. ANY listener with an ear above a "tin ear" would KNOW Buddy Emmons was NOT playing his Emmons if he played a Fender 400!

And you are correct about the number and types of equipment players purchase to enhance and change the tone of their guitars.

The Boss DD-3 alone is a good example. It vastly changes the sound coming out of a given amp. And the stories about various PU's that players did and did not like is further indication that it is NOT all in the hands.

I know of no one, or anything that would make an older MSA sound like and Emmons' P/P and vice versa, regardless of who played them.

carl

Dang, I hate it when Bobbe's right, but the more I think about it the more sense it makes. We must also realize that the tone difference between, for example, a Mullen, a ZumSteel, a LeGrande, a Fessy, etc. are VERY SUBTLE, even to steel players. Add to that the fact that there's a lot of variation among guitars made by the same builder and it's kinda homogenized. But the fact is that the push-pull IS DIFFERENT. There is a midrange thing that you simply can't EQ into a Zum, for example. I've listened to John Hughey for decades and I KNOW he doesn't soun the same on a Zum as he did on his old push-pull or even on the LeGrande. He still sounds wonderful and is a player's player, but I'd bet my bottom dollar that I could tell if you put him behind a curtain and he cut loose on a push-pull.

We have many choices and most of them sound really good, but they all sound slightly different. That's why different players play different brands -- they feel that their choice conveys the sound they hear in their head, perhaps better than others. There are also playability and maintenance issues, but this thread is on tone so I'll avoid that tangent.

What really slays me is the folks who are only comfortable thinking in BLACK and WHITE. xxxxxx is a yyyyyy player. I love owning more than one brand. It gives me a different feeling to show up at a gig with my old Emmons than with my brand new Fessy. I love both guitars and both sound great. Just DIFFERENT.
There IS a reason why some players still play 30+ year old Emmons, Sho-Bud, ZB, etc. guitars -- there's nothing made today that sounds exactly like them.

Just my opinion.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Carl,
I posted an earlier post about 6 mos ago inquiring about the tone of different pickups and different steels...I got a HUGE amount of people telling me "it's all in the hands"...
After playing a while, I now understand, and agree with you that it's NOT all in the hands.
I will agree that a HUGE part of the tone is truly in the hands, but not all of it..It would be a no brainer, and we would all have to only buy one brand of steel and no effects at all if it were "all in the hands"...

.....and Bobbe DOES have a GREAT TONE...There's no denying that !!!....

James,
You are correct. The contribution of the hands to your personal tone is HUGE, but it is cancelled out when you compare the same player playing different guitars.

That's how I compare the difference between the guitars themselves. Another technique I like to use is to plug directly into a studio board through a good reference amp and studio monitors with NO EQ or FX. That gives a solid reference point on what the guitar + pickup sounds like. You'll get the best comparison if you plug directly in with no volume pedal. Fortunately, I happen to have that combination in my music room, but it's the first thing I do whenever someone brings a new guitar to my house or in the rare event that I buy one for myself.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Bobbe Seymour is the guy that set me straight about the tonal characteristics and construction of various guitars. He and Dan Dugmore are the reason I play a big bodied Sho-Bud. I just put a 71 D-10 ZB back in excellent condition and it also is a tone monster. It sounds alot different from the Sho-Bud but is uniquely excellent. Listen to Bobbe Seymour play Precious Jewel on his live album and you will hear magnificent tone. He is a tone authority. I also own three different guitars to get three different sounds. Some guitars being made out there have terrible tonal characteristics. Its in their construction and design. Mostly being made to skimp for profit with little regard for tone.

I thought Bobbe says "Timbre" is from the guitar?!?
Oh Well...
Whatever you do, don't get caught up in the "Clone Tone" syndrome.
Find Your Own Voice!!!

The "tone is in the hands" thing, to me, is the (huge) difference between playing timidly/tenitevely, vs. playing fluently with a strong command of the instrument.
Go back and listen to tapes of yourself from the early days to hear the difference in your own tonal "command" of the instrument.

Maybe a better thread is:

How much "stuff" do you have, and how does it affect your tone?

"And you probably didn't think I did, but I heard, you say that tone is just a four letter word."

-?-

Let's see.....

Don't Guitars have a knob for that function?

Why not put one in a rack mount in a "suitcase nuke"? It couldn't be more than 4-500 bucks.

EJL

Tone is indeed in the mind and the hands. Execution is what we need to do to those with bad tone.

RE "tone"
At a friends place the other day and he had a pp Emmons that he had just rebuilt,a beautiful guitar.He played it and then without changing anything,swapped to one of his guitars(He also builds a great guitar) and I could'nt tell any difference,I also listened to the difference between his guitar and mine,reeeeel close. So I tend to agree that with decent equipment,tone is mostly in the hands of the player,but what do I know!!!
My PSG is all wood vs. aluminum necks...
BTW the owner of the blue Emmons was verry verry pleased with the rebuild.
(I,m ducking now)
Bill

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Bill Ford<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bill Ford on 27 March 2003 at 04:42 PM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bill Ford on 27 March 2003 at 04:46 PM.]</p></FONT>

If a player is in tune and plays in tune with the band, with proper meter, that pretty much covers it for me. About three years ago, John Hughey was playing a concert in Hawkinsville Georgia with two of our local top flight Steel Guitar Players, Jimmy Powell and Larry Bullock. I was sitting about six feet in front of John while he was tuning up. After John was tuned to his satisfaction, he started playing some really sweet slow E-9th licks and then he stopped and looked at me and asked, “How does it sound out there”? I looked him right in the eye with a smile and replied, “It sounds better than mine”. John cracked up and had a big laugh on that observation. What a neat guy he is.
Leon

Something that hasn't been mentioned- tone is also in the amp. And the way it's set.

I used to have 2 amps. My music man which I still own, and a Peavey LTD 400. There was no way I could ever get the same sound out of both. The Peavey was better for steel, but not as good for guitar. The Music Man is more of an all purpose amp. Not the best steel amp, but good enough, and my guitar and mandolin always sounded much better through it than through the Peavey.

The best sound though was when I used both together.

Interesting. Neverminding my own opinions and beliefs which I've formed in the time I've been a musician, I do have a lot of respect for Bobbe's knowledge and musicianship so I've considered this tidbit of info very seriously and carefully. "Tone is in the guitar, and execution is what separates one player from another"... Hmmm.

If meant to be taken absolutely literally, then this must mean that "any certain guitar and amp setup will have the same exact tone no matter who plays it, given that they don't touch the amp's settings"? I find that hard to believe or that someone of Bobbe's experience would suggest that. So, maybe the statement should be taken to mean, "any certain guitar and amp setup will have the same tone no matter who plays it, given that they don't touch the amp's settings, but MODIFIED by the individual player's execution", where, I assume we can define execution as those things particular to each player's technique, such as the angle of his picks to his strings, the distance from the bridge in relation to where he picks the strings, how hard he picks, etc. Right? So we're saying these execution techniques are responsible for making players sound different, such as two different players having different tones when taking turns on the same guitar and amp. OK.

My next question is, what are the actual instruments or tools performing the manual techniques involved with these varying forms and styles of execution? Wouldn't that be the.....HANDS?

"Tone's in the guitar....tone's in the execution.... tone's in the hands"......

Yes.

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 28 March 2003 at 08:35 AM.]</p></FONT>

I don't think tone comes from any one place. It comes from a combination of hands, guitar, pickup, amp, amp settings, effects pedals, even the brand of cable used and it's length. Some people swear that they sound better using George L cable than they do with other brands.

Even the size of the room and the number of people inside can make a difference.

Recently I sat in on Slim Lattimer's Emmons Push Pull. I liked the tone (a lot) but it sounded nothing like my MSA. Same hands, different gear, different tone.

Mike brings up another good point, one which actually drives me up a wall...same player and gear and a different sound in every different room, and even the same room sounds different depending on people and background noise, as Mike said.

Regarding my earlier posting and the topic of hands, execution and all, I was thinking more in terms of laboratory-like conditions; a steel and amp in a room, with different players taking turn and no one touching anything but their hands on the strings. In these conditions different players will often have different tones because of their execution, or hands, whatever one wishes to call it.

Speaking of cables, you brought up one of my pet peeves. Practically no one seems to give them much thought, they just buy whatever's available. I discovered some years ago that different cables really affect your tone. I can't stand to play through anything but my own homemade cables, and yes I've had some of my musician friends A/B them and they can hear it too. At first I thought I was imagining it.

Tone comes from ALL of it, guitar, player, amp, cables, picks, bar, room acoustics, mic on amp, whatever's in the picture. It all ADDS together.

Bill Stafford has played a worn out, dilapidated old SAW HORSE with wire strung across it for strings and still got beautiful full chords for which he is duly noted. This was witnessed by a number of great steel guitar players and all were sober at the time. Now please tell me, was that BEAUTIFUL TONE in his hands? or, the body of that guitar? or, in the amp? or, in his heart and soul? I've got a picture to prove it and it's the truth!!
Bobbe has a great "eye", a fine airplane
and plays well, but "timber"???
Hey Larry, does this mean you've sold all of the black boxes you used to lug around? I was convinced all that fabulous tone you get was from the nifty little stage you set up for yourself with all the lights and stuff and not just the affects packages you use.
Was I wrong?<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Ray Montee on 28 March 2003 at 12:23 PM.]</p></FONT>

Ray... the answer is the tone's in all of it! Everything you listed, "the body of that guitar? or, in the amp? or, in his heart and soul?"......Where else can it possibly come from?


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I received this email from Bobbe Seymour and he gave me permission to post it. Here it is, cut-&-pasted exactly as he wrote it:

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Jim,
I agree with your post, I was misquoted slightly. I'm not sure where this person got that I said exactly what he said I said,possibly from my direct e-mail posts. But he's close, VERY close. You are dead on. However, good hands won't make up for a sucky sounding guitar, I don't care if it's Buddy Emmons playing it, As you said, it helps if everything is working together. I'm no sure the hands are an equal third though. Most folks have a problem separating tone from good execution. They are two totally different things that somehow blend together in a lot of peoples minds.
Another thing that's interesting here is that most of my friends that aren't agreeing here, are playing guitars that are known to not sound very good. A couple of them are missing the point altogether, the greatest amp in the world won't help a bad guitar anymore than great hands can. It takes all three to be a great sounding steel player, Thank you Jim, You are correct, as you usually are.
If you wish to post this e-mail to the forum, it's fine with me as I won't be posting on this thread directly.
Your buddy,

Bobbe Seymour
Steel Guitar Nashville
123 Midtown Court
Hendersonville, TN 37075
(615) 822-5555 www.steelguitar.net
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<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 28 March 2003 at 12:32 PM.]</p></FONT>

Jim P.,
Can you give us a run-down on your homemade
cables?

I think I have it now...

"Timbre" is the parameter that describes {for example} Vince Gils voice, unplugged, accapela.

In our case "Timbre" is what a steel sounds like unplugged.

"Tone" is what Vince Gils voice sounds like coming through a Mic>Sound System>Speakers.
(Sound System=Mic(pickup)/cords/effects/preamps/amps/ect)

The "Tone" of Vince's particular vocal "Timbre" may sound noticably different if he switches Mic's... or Sound System or Speakers.

In our case, "Tone" is what the Timbre of a particular steel sounds like coming through a Pickup>Sound System>Speaker(s).

The "Tone" of our steels particular "Timbre" may sound noticably different if we switch Pickups... or Sound System or Speakers.

I'm guessing Porter Waggoner (for example) sang through many different Mic's and Sound Systems over the years at the GOO. The "Tone" may have changed, but you knew it was Porter (and not Vince) because of his unique vocal "Timbre" (kinda like a thumb print... no two are exactly the same).

Most singers I've known have tried many Mic's, sound systems/speakers over the course of their singing careers (and will undoubtably show up to a gig with some new vocal pickup (mic), or other "Tone" enhancing toy in the future).

Most Steelers I've known have tried many different Pickups/Sound Systems/Speakers over the years (and will undoubtably show up to a gig with some new...)

Even ones who play Push-Pulls!?!

Go Figer?!

When Vince Gill has a sore throat, or he inhaled some helium,I think I still can recognice Vince Gill a-capella.When Paul Franklin uses another guitar, other pics, other amp or whatever,he still sounds like PF> Where do you place that(The hands,mind,and experience) in your story, Pete?
Thanks, buddy!
JJ

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Click on the pic!

Johan,
Would you recognize his PLAYING or his TONE? It's difficult to separate them.

If you listen to Buddy's recording of Four Wheel Drive, for example, he's playing it on a Fender which couldn't be further from an Emmons, tonewise, but it is clearly Emmons -- Buddy Emmons, that is.

Yes, the overall SOUND is a composite of the player's choice of notes, technique, the amp, AND the guitar. My point earlier was that the only way to separate out the guitar's contribution is when the same player is playing through the same amp using different guitars. At that point, all the other stuff cancels out and you can hear the nuances that the guitar itself contributes. That's what I think, anyway, for whatever that's worth.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

I'm not talking about music, I'm talking about excecution, the way one picks strings, handles the bar etc. In my study classical guitar, we talked about tone, what was supposed the way you got the sound out of the strings,attack,left hand technique by just pressing the string to the neck. To me it's the same with steel my 2 €cts.
JJ

Ya got me, Johan...
I read all that Porter, Vince, Tone/Timbre stuff on Bobbe's forum, and was just runnin' it by you guys to see if I got it right!
Yer Buddy!
Pete B.