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Topic: Calling levers by letter names |
Mark Nix
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2014 12:12 pm |
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There always seems to be confusion when talking about pedals and levers and a lot of people just refer to them as what they do to avoid confusion. Would it not just make sense to call the levers by what they actually do in letter form though?
If I'm not mistaken these would be the 4 most common levers (in alphabetical order):
D#>D/C#
E>Eb
E>F
F#>G(or G#)
Would it not make sense to label them alphabetically as such?
D
E
F
G
_________________
'73 Shobud Pro II D10 9&8 - '99 Fender Stratocaster '62 Re-issue - VOX AD120VTH's - VOX AD412's |
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John Scanlon
From:
Jackson, Mississippi, USA
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Mark Nix
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2014 12:50 pm
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Yes, there are but there are also people who refer to them as other things such as from this recent thread: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=272872
_________________
'73 Shobud Pro II D10 9&8 - '99 Fender Stratocaster '62 Re-issue - VOX AD120VTH's - VOX AD412's |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 13 Oct 2014 1:11 pm
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Phil isn't the only one to call the E raises the D lever.
Buddy Emmons did in an instructional book.
Some people call the E lowers the E lever, some call it the D lever because it goes to D# (there's no Eb in the key of E).
It's enough, in the words of the late Douglas Adams, to make a man crave a Ouisghian soda.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 13 Oct 2014 2:08 pm
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Mark, what you suggest is neat and logical but history is not. We're nailing jelly to the wall with this one.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Mark Nix
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2014 6:17 pm
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I like jelly..  
_________________
'73 Shobud Pro II D10 9&8 - '99 Fender Stratocaster '62 Re-issue - VOX AD120VTH's - VOX AD412's |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 13 Oct 2014 6:35 pm
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I'm w/ Mark. I also call B-->Bb "the B lever".
More elaborate or unique levers just need to be described by their function, with the exceptions of the "Franklin" lever.... and maybe the "Mooney" lever (4th string E-F#) |
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Mark Nix
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2014 7:28 pm
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Yeah I agree that things out of the norm should be described as what they do, or a professionals lever that has become somewhat standard such as the franklin pedal. But for these four levers that are found on nearly every pedal steel made today, why not start simplifying it and get everyone on the same page. We don't all still speak ancient roman. Language evolves and so should the common language of an instrument as intricate as the pedal steel. If nails won't hold the jelly to the wall, I suggest we find jars with lids and build some shelves to sit them on.
_________________
'73 Shobud Pro II D10 9&8 - '99 Fender Stratocaster '62 Re-issue - VOX AD120VTH's - VOX AD412's |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 13 Oct 2014 9:13 pm
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I believe the confusion stems back to the days when the 3 stock E9 pedals were getting named as the "A", "B", and "C" pedals, in order from left to right. Their designations didn't have anything to do with music or notes, just physical position. So, after that, I think they started over on the knees, from the left again, calling the LKL "D", LKR "E", etc., again bearing no relation to the music per se. Then some wise guy got the notion that we ought to be referring to musical function instead of placement, especially since people were moving the levers to different locations and "LKR" might now end up on "RKL" or some other preferred location. Would it take it's old letter name with it, and get everything out of order?
But PSG players, being an uncontrollable, rowdy bunch, never quite caught on - or, actually, some of them did, and some never did, so we have ended up with a confusing hodgepodge of references for pedals and knees.
I could be all wrong about that but, anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it. 
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www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
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Mark Nix
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2014 9:18 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
Those are the names I use. I think that a lot of people call B  Bb the "X" lever. |
I like that b0b, the X lever. As "B" has already been taken as a pedal, and I understand the ABC versus 123 because of day and Emmons, when you could just as well say 321, but those are common knowledge already, so I see no reason in making anything more confusing.
_________________
'73 Shobud Pro II D10 9&8 - '99 Fender Stratocaster '62 Re-issue - VOX AD120VTH's - VOX AD412's |
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Mark Nix
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2014 9:35 pm
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| Jim Cohen wrote: |
I believe the confusion stems back to the days when the 3 stock E9 pedals were getting named as the "A", "B", and "C" pedals, in order from left to right. Their designations didn't have anything to do with music or notes, just physical position. So, after that, I think they started over on the knees, from the left again, calling the LKL "D", LKR "E", etc., again bearing no relation to the music per se. Then some wise guy got the notion that we ought to be referring to musical function instead of placement, especially since people were moving the levers to different locations and "LKR" might now end up on "RKL" or some other preferred location. Would it take it's old letter name with it, and get everything out of order?
But PSG players, being an uncontrollable, rowdy bunch, never quite caught on - or, actually, some of them did, and some never did, so we have ended up with a confusing hodgepodge of references for pedals and knees.
I could be all wrong about that but, anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it. |
I believe that is what was going on in the thread I linked to. The E>F was being labeled the D lever.
And with people putting levers in different spots, I think it's easier to say "E on LKR" than "Lower strings 4&8 with LKR" or "E>Eb on LKR"
_________________
'73 Shobud Pro II D10 9&8 - '99 Fender Stratocaster '62 Re-issue - VOX AD120VTH's - VOX AD412's |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Bo Borland
From:
South Jersey -
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Posted 14 Oct 2014 11:31 am
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I will always Use the letter designation for levers , always..
pedals are numbered 1-2-3-4 or 0-1-2-3 if the PF pedal is at 0
Day set up is 3-2-1
I would rather be asked how do i use the lever that raises strings 1-2 & 7. I don't care where it is under your steel
Call it the G lever |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 14 Oct 2014 11:40 am
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| Tony Glassman wrote: |
| ....... I also call B-->Bb "the lever"....... |
My error: It should read the "Bb" lever |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 14 Oct 2014 2:25 pm
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| Bo Borland wrote: |
I will always Use the letter designation for levers , always..
pedals are numbered 1-2-3-4 or 0-1-2-3 if the PF pedal is at 0
Day set up is 3-2-1
I would rather be asked how do i use the lever that raises strings 1-2 & 7. I don't care where it is under your steel
Call it the G lever |
But, before the first string raise to G#, I have seen the 'G' lever referred to as raising strings 1 & 7 to G. To me, that would be what I knew as the 'G' lever. But, I also refer to levers by what they do. Never any questions that way.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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Mark Nix
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2014 2:33 pm
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So would it make more sense to call the 1&7 half step raise the G and call the 1&7 whole w/ 2 half step raise the G# lever to avoid the confusion there?
_________________
'73 Shobud Pro II D10 9&8 - '99 Fender Stratocaster '62 Re-issue - VOX AD120VTH's - VOX AD412's |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 14 Oct 2014 2:47 pm
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When I acquired my old D10 it had one lever which lowered 8 to D# and 2 to D. I believe this was quite common in the early days of levers. It would have been quite logical to follow on from A,B & C and call it D, if it had needed a name. I suspect that the muddle began when its functions got split.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 14 Oct 2014 5:25 pm
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| Mark Nix wrote: |
| So would it make more sense to call the 1&7 half step raise the G and call the 1&7 whole w/ 2 half step raise the G# lever to avoid the confusion there? |
But what about someone like me that had the 7th string to G#, but didn't have the 1st string to G# on the same lever?
I don't mean to sound like a prick, but this subject comes up probably a half dozen times a year, and has for at least ten years, and it always ends with no agreement. I don,t believe that will ever change.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2014 10:01 pm
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I think it's appropriate to give letter names to the common knee levers, the ones almost every has, the ones that beginners are learning to use from tab. Few people are tabbing out things with the more obscure or custom changes.
For my students, I teach the common D E and F levers by the letter names. I also call their 4th lever, which almost always gives you a G note somewhere, "G" regardless of what it actually does. And I call the B to Bb lever "X". The letter names are very convenient for communication in a teaching environment.
I don't see why Richard would even need a special name for his unusual 7th string lever, unless he's jotting down notes for his own reference. In that case, what he calls it is largely irrelevant to this discussion. On my D6 copedent, I have pedals and levers that I call W X Y and Z when jotting hints on sheet music. The fact that they are similar to, but not exactly the same as, standard C6 pedals doesn't change my belief that standardized levers should have standardized names.
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 15 Oct 2014 7:26 am
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But who will set the standard?
It seems the problem stems largely from the fact that some of the most-used instructional materials use "D" for the lever that lowers the E's, while others of the most-used instructional materials call it "E". As long as the world of instructional materials contains this discrepancy, there's no standardization.
Perhaps it would have been better to use letter names for levers that don't resemble the note names. But it's probably too late to start over.
But what does it matter, really? Presumably whatever tab one runs across states what the letters it uses mean, and even if not one could figure it out with very little trouble. If the "D" appears next to a number on the 4th string line, it obviously isn't the lever that lowers 2, and vice versa. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 15 Oct 2014 8:22 am
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| Quote: |
| I don't see why Richard would even need a special name for his unusual 7th string lever, unless he's jotting down notes for his own reference. |
I don't. Actually I got rid of that change. In fact the only lever I reference by name is the F lever. That seems to be the only one that has been widely accepted.
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| But who will set the standard? |
This would have to be someone with a lot of visibility and trust among the steel guitar community. The only one that I know of that fits this description is B0B. I would accept his naming conventions without question. Maybe that would put this issue to bed once and for all.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 15 Oct 2014 9:09 am
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| Brint Hannay wrote: |
| But what does it matter, really? Presumably whatever tab one runs across states what the letters it uses mean, and even if not one could figure it out with very little trouble. If the "D" appears next to a number on the 4th string line, it obviously isn't the lever that lowers 2, and vice versa. |
Of course this is correct.
Jeff Newman famously used D and E opposite from what I recommend, but it's easy to adapt when you're reading tab. The only point of confusion is in conversation, written (as here) or spoken (as in lessons). A B C and F are well established and understood. I think X is, too (though a lot of people just call it "the Bb lever")
This isn't the first time I've disagreed with Jeff, but I use and recommend exactly what Mark Nix suggested in the original post. The names are simple and easy to remember. If my vote really does have the clout that Richard suggests, the matter is settled. 
yeah, right...
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 15 Oct 2014 9:34 am
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B0B. I think your word would have a profound effect. Thousands look up to you for having this forum in the first place. You would be my ONLY choice for naming the levers.
If I was naming them, I would call the lever that lowered the E's the "E" lever and the 2nd string lower, the "D" lever because it usually will hit the D note, either by half stop or the lever just tuned to D. Of course, people like me who have the D and C# on separate levers would have issues (probably mental ).
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
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Posted 15 Oct 2014 9:58 am
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I think we should give the levers the names they truly deserve: those of the players who invented or popularized them.
For example, the E-F lever would be "Lloyd," while the E-Eb lever on LKR would be "Buddy." Unless, of course, it was on the RKL of an E9/B6 tuning in which case it would be called "Jeff."
The B-Bb, or "X" lever, would undoubtedly be called "Tom," even though he didn't use any levers on "Together Again."
Paul already has either a lever or pedal named for his surname, but I think that the F#-G#/D#-E lever should be called "Paul" even if he wasn't the first to come up with the idea.
I think the F#-G lever would be called "Jimmy," unless the note was achieved at a half-stop on "Paul." In that situation "JimmyPaul" would have to suffice.
I personally use Jimmy a lot to play like Ralph, but that's another thread entirely.
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My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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