TUNING a Piano ???

[Eddie Cunningham]

With all the problems everyone has with a pedal steel staying in tune on pedal changes with adjustments and compensators how in Heavens name do they ever get a "piano" in tune to play in every key ??? And those concert musicians have very sharp ears !!! ??? -olde geeze - AKA Eddie "C"

[Alan Brookes]

It's impossible to get any keyboard instrument to play in tune in every key. It's a problem that keyboard builders have been struggling with for centuries. The F in the key of C, for instance, is not the same note as the F in the key of D. Keyboard instruments (like most others) were made to play in the key of Amin or C, and it was the only key in which the strings were in tune. Then they started to add in-between strings to enable playing in some other keys, but having enough strings to accomodate all 23 major and minor keys would make the keyboard impossibly bulky to play, and a piano too big to handle.

So, in the 18th century, someone came up with Equal Temperament, which means averaging out the notes. With Equal Temperament you are out of tune in every key, but to the same extent. That tuning is now used on all keyboard instruments, especially electronic ones, and harps. Natural Temperament is nowadays only found on folk and historic instruments, and they only play in a few basic keys.

[Eddie Cunningham]

I understand your theory but can't quite figure out why things still sound in tune even if they are not !! I used to work with "reedy" accordions and some good guitar players in the 40s & 50s and we always sounded right in tune , my ears were pretty good back then !! I don't have a piano available to check out different keys but this systen must work out O.K. !! If it works don't try to fix it !! It's beyond my comprehension !! The good thing about non-pedal steel , once you set the basic tuning you are in tune all keys up and down the fretboard !! - olde geeze - AKA Eddie "C"

[Les Cargill]

"Concert musicians" are usually on a string or wind instrument. Strings have no frets, so it's up to the player to adjust into the generally perceived pitch. And they use quite a bit of vibrato.

Wind instruments can be microtuned through mechanical adjustment and "embouchure". But if you listen for it, the pitch just varies among an orchestra. Copyists* - the people who translate the big composer's score to the individual parts - have to know which notes are "wolf" on what wind instruments and avoid them.

*this could be the composer but it's actually a separate discipline.

When I played French Horn, there were notes that you'd use a different fingering for depending on context.

[Alan Brookes]

I ... can't quite figure out why things still sound in tune even if they are not !! ...

Maybe you're so used to equal temperament that your ears have gotten used to slight differences. Our ancestors obviously could tell the difference or they wouldn't have spent lifetimes trying to devise instruments that play in tune. Let's face it, adding additional strings to a keyboard instrument is about as severe a task as one could imagine, and not something they would enter into lightly.
Yes, a lap steel, once tuned to natural temperament, will be in tune all the way up the fingerboard relative to that particular chord. The same thing would happen on a guitar if all you used was full barrés. Remember, the steel guitar has no frets. As Les said, we automatically compensate by ear for any differences, and we use a lot of vibrato. With vibrato the note is only in tune in the middle of the vibrato, but the ears perceive the difference as a tone variation.

[Donny Hinson]

With all the problems everyone has with a pedal steel staying in tune on pedal changes with adjustments and compensators how in Heavens name do they ever get a "piano" in tune to play in every key ??? And those concert musicians have very sharp ears !!! ??? -olde geeze - AKA Eddie "C"

It's not "in tune", but it sounds "in tune" (a concept that befuddles many). That's why the human ear works better than a meter for tuning. The tuning meter doesn't know how anything sounds, because everything is just numbers. Now, that would be okay if the numbers were always the same, but they're not. They vary, based on the guitar, the scale, the string guages, the tunings, the temperature, the player, and about a dozen other things.

The prime directive is that is has to sound good, because nothing else really matters. Once you wrap your head around that premise, and develop a good ear, you'll have almost no problems making any guitar sound "in tune". In the world of tuning, so many are looking for an easy way out, but there is none - you must develop the skill. (Simply buying a whoopie-wow meter won't do it.)

There are no short cuts to anyplace worth going.

[Charlie McDonald]

To further compound, there are slight differences in piano tuners' temperaments and piano scaling (string lengths and guages).

The differences in tunings of various instruments gives them their individual sounds, separating them from each other in the mix. And still, we can play together.

The F in the key of C, for instance, is not the same note as the F in the key of D.

There ain't no F in D!

[Jeff Scott Brown]

The F in the key of C, for instance, is not the same note as the F in the key of D.

There ain't no F in D!

Of course there is. There isn't an F in the D major scale but there is most certainly a note in the key of D that is a step and a half above D and that note is called F.

[Lane Gray]

Unless it's a sharp 9

[Bill Hatcher]

thank you mr Bach

[Charlie McDonald]

he's sharp

[Alan Brookes]

...There ain't no effin' D!

Mind your language, Charlie.
Okay then, "The F in the key of C, for instance, is not the same note as the F in the key of F." Now dispute that there's an F in F.
Yes, sorry, out of eight choices I chose the wrong one as an example without thinking. Be assured though, that I do know which notes form the major scale of F.
...now what were they?

...how in Heavens name do they ever get a "piano" in tune...?

If you've been in as many barrooms as I have over the years Eddie, the answer is that they don't.

Oh gosh, I'm in form tonight. I should be on the stage .... the next one out of town.

...and I spent 45 years as a CPA where I had to keep a straight face to retain my plausibility. Now I'm retired I can let it all hang out. (Sorry, officer, I'll put all back in again.)

[Gary Spaeth]

i used to be a piano tuner until i wore my arm out. the fourths are tuned a little flat. example middle c to the g below. g is flat by about 1 cps. when tuning f to c that is sharp by as much. the thirds get pretty sharp like about 8 cps so middle c to the e above is 8 beats per second sharp. we were taught to think of a sousa march where the downbeats are 1 beat per second then say "from chicago to milwaukee" over every beat to get a feel for 8 beats per second. the beats gets proportionately faster as you go up. we tune the middle octave this way until it's tempered then tune the rest by octaves beatless to this. a cps is the same as one beat per second.

[Alan Brookes]

...a CPS is the same as one beat per second.

...and one cycle per second equals one Hertz.

[Gary Spaeth]

ya hertz cps the same thing. the beats are the difference between two notes eg a note 440 when played with a 439 will beat (wah-oo-wah) 1 beat per second since there's one cps difference. sorry not a very good "describer."

[Alan Brookes]

Describing it is the easy part, Gary. Learning how to recognise it is beyond the capabilities of many people. That's why we need professional piano tuners. Unfortunately, the advent of electronic keyboards, (which are starting to sound more and more like real piano's), and the availability of electronic tuners, must be making it more and more difficult for piano' tuners to make a living nowadays.
N.B. I wrote piano's as the plural, not because I don't realise that plurals don't take an apostaphe, but because piano' is an abbreviation of "pianoforte", so, grammatically, a pianoforte's keys should be abbreviated piano''s keys.