Emmons Question

Sam White · Post by **Sam White** » 22 Mar 2003 3:08 pm

Why is it the pedals on the push Pull push os hard.I sat behind My freind Ray Walker Beautiful 1977 Emmonds he just bought off the forum and I thought I was going to have to use two feet to push those pedals. I guess you just have to get use to them. My Fessy pedals push nice and easy.I love the looks and sound of Rays Steel but I had a problem pushing those Pedals.
Sam White

Bobby Bowman · Post by **Bobby Bowman** » 22 Mar 2003 4:52 pm

Sam,
They don't have to be that way.

BB
*******it's all in the set up and adjustment by the person doing the work********
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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

[This message was edited by Bobby Bowman on 22 March 2003 at 04:55 PM.]

Charles Tilley · Post by **Charles Tilley** » 22 Mar 2003 4:57 pm

My 1998 Emmons Le Grange ll had hard pedals. I took the springs off where the hook end of the rods go and it is easier now. You might try that. The string tension should bring the string back anyhow. This might not be the right thing to do, but it worked for me.

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Charles Tilley

Bullard, Texas

Emmons D10 LeGrande II, TubeFex,Nashville 400

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 22 Mar 2003 8:06 pm

The return springs on LeGrande pedal cranks was designed JUST strong enough to counter the weight of the pedal and the pedal pull rod when in the upright position.

In other words, it keeps their combined weight from activating the changer fingers in any way. this is why they never have put return springs on the knee levers; since their weight has no affect on the changer.

P/P's, everything else being equal. would be harder to engage pedals than a LeGrande
because of the pull rod balancing springs. However, they should NOT be THAT much harder. If they are, Bobby is correct, they need to be adjusted properly.

It is wrong in my opinion to remove all balancing springs on a P/P. They DO have a purpose. I believe they should be there. If the right person does the adjusting, the P/P can feel quite good, albeit not quite as easy as a LeGrande.

carl

Sam White · Post by **Sam White** » 23 Mar 2003 5:49 am

Thanks guys if I had only thought of the springs I would have answered my own Question. If you put light pull springs they would work easier A'm I correct.On my Fessey you can put tention on the pedals and you can take tention off by tightening the screw that goes in the spring or back off the tention and it makes the pedals easier to push.All I had to do is stop and think about it and I would have answered my own question.
Sam White

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 23 Mar 2003 6:47 am

Hi, Sam
I play a push-pull and a couple of Fessies and I can tell you that I almost always practice barefoot -- stocking feet. The action on BOTH GUITARS is determined by how they are set up. If anything, my push-pull has a bit lighter pedal action than the all-pulls I've owned.

BB's right (Carl, too) -- the shock springs are an important piece of the puzzle. I avoid them whenever possible -- I believe Bobby suggested this before as well.

And, yes, adjusting the return springs on a push-pull is a royal pain -- much easier on the Fessy -- just turn the screw. But I've never had to mess with them on my push-pull.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 23 March 2003 at 06:51 AM.]

Bobby Bowman · Post by **Bobby Bowman** » 23 Mar 2003 10:03 am

Sam and all,
It includes a lot more than just adjusting the lower return springs. It's more or less a "package" adjustment that is generaly and necessarily required for each individual guitar and set up. In my opinion this approach really applies to any guitar,,,,all pull or push pull.
In a capsule, it involves eliminating friction and any unnecessary resistence. No "rocket science" here, just a lot of dedicated study given to the requirements of the set up, the adjustments needed to achieve that "good" action on a particular set up and a bit of "know how" (which is usually learned through "hands on" experience from working on guitars). Principles and choices of leverage also is a large part of attaining good action along with the above mentions.
Keep in mind,,,,apart from the musical side of a pedal steel and all of the opinions and debates that go with that,,,,it is nothing more than a mechanical mechine.
BB

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

Gino Iorfida · Post by **Gino Iorfida** » 23 Mar 2003 11:08 am

I have to agree with Bobby.

I was under the impression that a push pull would be harder to push the pedals etc, and when mine arrived, I was pleasantly surprised. The pedals were nor harder to push, nor had any longer throw/slack than any all pull guitar I've played, and in fact, the push pull actually felt BETTER to me (more positive/solid feeling stops etc). -- on top if it, my push pull has a 'franklin' pedal on pedal 1, which I've heard some say makes the push pull even more difficult to deal with, which on mine is NOT the case. Granted, my experience has been with ShoBud's (Pro II, and LDG), and MSA classic etc, and a few garage built types. It leads me to believe what I was taught in high school physics -- the law of levers, force x distance on one side = force tiems distance on the other side.

Logic WOULD say, that an emmons SHOULD be ever so slightly harder to push pedals, due to the slightly longer scale length, but my limited experience tells me that 1/4" REALLY doesnt make any real noticible difference (no more than would be noticed between different brands of strings).

I would have to wonder if 1) your buddy has larger than 'standard' string guages on (which would require more pressure, 2) the guitar is set up wrong, 3) there are some friction issues (read, lubrication?) or 4) he has it set up for faster/shorter pedal action to copy more of a 'Paul Franklin' style of playing

I wonder if the action you are used to is due to yoru guitar having 'helper springs' of sort, or possibly a longer pedal throw

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 23 Mar 2003 11:18 am

I absolutely can testify that a properly setup p/p can play every bit as smoothly and easily as an all-pull guitar (and yes, this was a surprise to me too, and a rvelation.) On the other hand, I have sat at a very, very highly regarded modern guitar that had such light pedal action that I could hardly even feel the pedals---didn't like it one bit. I don't know if the p/p can match this.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 23 Mar 2003 12:02 pm

I put helper springs on the raises of my push-pull. This also enabled me to reduce the tension of the springs that hold the lowers in position. The steel is so easy to play, you don't know it's there, so all energies can be expended on the 'thinking' side of playing.

Tommy Detamore · Post by **Tommy Detamore** » 23 Mar 2003 12:08 pm

I recently played Herb Steiner's wraparound that Bobby Bowman had set up, and it felt absolutely wonderful. I have never played a PP that had such light, smooth action. Made me want one all over again!

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 23 Mar 2003 12:48 pm

There is NO way to remove all slack on a raised string (on a P/P), IF that string is also lowered.

The raise and lower balancing springs DO add increased tension to a raised or lowered string. Everything else being equal that must equate to a slightly stiffer pull than a corresponding pull on an all-pull.

If, (which I do not recommend) all the balancing springs are removed, then a given raise on a P/P will be identical to the same raise on an all pull IF, the scale length and string gauge is the same. (note: assumes the pedal or knee lever travel is the same)

This is because ounce/inches of pull is a physical fact. And in this case the only variable is the string. So if the gauge AND travel is the same, the pulling tension is the same (assumes friction is the same which it should be in a properly lubed guitar).

carl

David Mullis · Post by **David Mullis** » 23 Mar 2003 3:26 pm

Sounds like a setup issue to me. It's too bad these guitars are so misunderstood. My 71 Emmons plays as good as my JCH with the exception of the extra travel needed on the C pedal, but even that's not so bad. My Emmons isn't as tight as the JCH but it still plays great. Many others have said it before, and I'll say it again, a properly setup push pull should not be hard to play.

Larry Moore · Post by **Larry Moore** » 23 Mar 2003 5:25 pm

I have 2 Emmons Guitars.The 67 D-10, P-P 8-6
The pedals play just as easy as my 2000 D-10 8-6 Lashley LeGrande II. Like the others have said about the P-P if it is adjusted correctly it should not be hard to push the pedals.Mine is an near orginal as possible with all of the return springs working. They both play and sound great. Hope you can get the Old P-P doing right.

Larry

Sam White · Post by **Sam White** » 23 Mar 2003 5:32 pm

I sat behind my freind Skip Mertz New beautiful Emmonds Steel last night where he was playing and the pedals on that one were like my fessey nice and easy and smooth. It is a all pull.I think that is the diffrence a all pull push easy and a push pull push harder
Sam white

Sam White · Post by **Sam White** » 23 Mar 2003 5:33 pm

I sat behind my freind Skip Mertz New beautiful Emmonds Steel last night where he was playing and the pedals on that one were like my fessey nice and easy and smooth. It is a all pull.I think that is the diffrence a all pull push easy and a push pull push harder
Sam white

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 23 Mar 2003 6:11 pm

Hey Sam, there's no 'D' in Emmons, it's E-M-M-O-N-S!

That reminds me of an old joke, but I won't go there!

[This message was edited by Jim Smith on 23 March 2003 at 06:13 PM.]