The Steel Guitar Forum

Do you U-12 players prefer the lever lock or not? It seems I seen something here once by Reece on this subject but I didn't have a big interest in the U-12 at that time. Holding the thing over is bothersome to me and makes me think in the E9 mode. It seems that if I weren't holding it over I'd be more apt to think in the B6 mode. Does that make sense to you more experienced U-12 guys? Here's something else. I've always lowered me E's on my LKR. To keep my set-up from straying too far from what I'm used to wouldn't it make sense to have the lever lock and keep that lever on my LKR?

Hi Frank, I have had 2 Sierra u-12s and I just never could seem to use the locks. It seems that you can change from one tuning to the other a lot easier.My e-lower is on my lkr as well and I like it there.
Norm McDaniel
Sierra Universal

Frank,
As an owner of a Sierra S14 tuned to E9/B6, I would endorse having the "ChangeLok". The reason being that Sierras are different from many other guitars that are tuned to "Universal" tunings. First, the design has all the kneelevers mounted on the frame rail inside the back apron. Hence, all the kneelevers line up along the back apron. Not staggered across the underside of the cabinet like most other designs. That's a significant feature because it can allow (does not have to) kneelevers to be setup ergonomically for playing the E9 pedals (left side) and kneelevers (left leg and right leg) just like on a standard S10 or D10 guitar. And it can allow kneelevers to be setup directly behind the B6 (C6) pedals (center to right side). Meaning, left leg in the middle of the cabinet and right leg on the right side just like the kneelevers on a D10.

By having the "ChangeLok" you can choose to ergonimically play the Sierra as a "Universal" E9/B6 like all the other manufacturer's guitars or you can play the Sierra like a "Standard" D10 with an E9/B6 tuning simply by engaging the "ChangeLok" and repositioning in back of the "6th " pedals. The Sierra guitars are unique for these kneelever layout and "ChangeLok" capabilities and I would recommend trying the "ChangeLok" for that reason.

Hope that answers your question.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn www.kevinfowler.com

Frank,
One way I avoid the leg fatigue is by putting P6 on a knee. It does double duty by providing the missing 9th string D on the 8th string and only lowers E to D. I have that change on LKR and the E to D# on RKL. When one engages, the other is released, avoiding that constant pressure to hold the Eb lever. If you think about how often you play out of the 9th string based P6 position on C6, this approach begins to make sense. That's how I've avoided the LOK lever for almost 30 years playing this tuning. I believe that locking in that change defeats or impedes ONE of the two major approaches to a U-12 -- playing it all as one big tuning (the other is to treat it like a D-10 and not 'mix 'n' match').

HOWEVER, I've kinda softened on the idea (not enough to GET ONE, but enough not to badmouth the concept) because you DON'T HAVE TO USE IT if you don't want to -- so it may be better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. It would allow me to access the other levers on the same knee, which I've never been able to do before.

I'll be in Nashville around the mid-end of April for the birth of my first grandchild. I suspect I'll be in need of a diversion while I'm there for a week or so. If you'd like, I could bring one of my guitars and we can get together. Let me know if you're interested.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 03 March 2003 at 07:22 AM.]</p></FONT>

Hey Frank,
I think the lock is a bad idea. The Universal tuning should be looked at as one "Big Tuning" and not two separate tunings as on a double neck. With that said, it works well for some folks like Bill Stafford and others. I like to incorporate all the changes I can into anything I play and you can't do that with a change lock device. My current number one guitar (BMI) had a lock on it when I got it around 11 or 12 years ago and the first thing I did was take the thing off. I tried it out a little but I found that I'd gotten in the habit of using the 4th & 8th strings a lot open and lowered with the other pedals. Jeff Newman does it very well with no lock. I lower my E's on my RKR which works very well as it leaves my left leg free do anything or go anywhere it wants to without having to hold a lever in. All three of my left knee levers are used in both the country and swing stuff. Have a good 'un..........JH

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

When I first got my U-12, I used the "LOK" quite a bit. The more I played it, the less I used it. BUT I would rather have it on their than not IF I want to use it. It is standard on several guitars. No one says it has to be used. But if a person is playing a lot of "C6" stuff, it can get a bit tiring to hold the E's to Eb for long periods of time.

The way I ease this situation; and the ONLY way I would ever play a U-12, is to lower them on LKR. Here is why. All the pedals that must have the E's lowered are to the right and ever more so; the more "6th" pedals one has. This then aids activating the lever; since simply reaching over to get those pedals almost forces the knee lever in that direction.

By having it on LKR, I am rarely ever aware that I am engaging it. It just seems to happen. UNLESS of course as mentioned above, it can be tiring if I am playing a lot of tunes in the 6th mode.

I must also agree with locating the "C6" 6th pedal on a knee lever. In my case RKR. For years I felt that pedal should have always been on a knee. I am now convinced. Here are several reasons why:

1. It is used with every single pedal. And delightfully so with A and B. Just love it

2. It is also used with LKR, LKL, LKL2 and LKV in my setup.

3. It moves pedals 5 and 7 next to each other where they have ALWAYS needed to be.

4. It moves pedals 5 and 8 closer together. Be suprised how helpful this is when going from "boowah" to pedal 5 and vice versa.

5. Having the option of alternating the D note on the 9th string with the D note on the 8th string on opposite knee knee levers I can't tell you how good it is, until you have it. This is because in music, we often "pass" up to go to the 7th while other times we "pass" down. Yet, in some cases we go from one to the other quickly. By having these two D's on opposite knee levers on strings 8 and 9 is just great.

So the LOK lever and putting the 6th pedal on a knee lever; along with LKR lowering the E's, is the ONLY way to fly IMO.

Others will surely dissagree,

carl

Guys, while we're on the subject of pedal and knee arrangements for U12 I have a related question. On standard U12 copedents like the one at the Carter site and the similar one that came on my Fessy U12, the pedals are arranged different than on standard C6 at the Carter site (which seems to be very similar to BE's setup). Is there any particular reason for this, and wouldn't it be better if these were all the same? For example my pedal 4 is the boo-wah usually located on pedal 8 for C6; and my pedal 6 is what is usually on pedal 7 for C6; and what is usually pedal 6 on standard C6 is on my LKR. I can't see any particular reason for these differences. Wouldn't it be better if all of this was as close as possible to standard C6? It would certainly make it easier to learn licks from others and to read TAB.

Frank,

I never had a lock on my guitar and never felt the need to get one too. I have the Day set-up with the E->Eb lower on RKR and pushing the lever out feels very natural to me. I also like the possibility of using the change back to E when I want the major chord instead of the Maj7, or when mixing B6th with E9th. Or even use Eb->F in other cases (RKR to RKL). The sound already gets me in the mood for B6th, keeping that lever out doesn't.

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Zumsteel S12U

Yo, Man! homepage

<SMALL>Others will surely dissagree</SMALL>

yep --
with two out of three points, anyway

If you lower your E's on your left knee, you HAVE to use your lok lever to be able to combine with MOST of the other levers -- since most every pedal steel I've seen has more levers on the left knee than the right. I'll have to respectfully disagree with my old buddy Carl on this 'un.

I'll only mildly disagree that the lok lever is a good thing, since I've never really used one and doubt I would even if I installed one.

P6 on a lever -- we can agree wholeheartedly on that. There's a good reason I've had it there for more than 25 years.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 03 March 2003 at 11:40 AM.]</p></FONT>

I currently have 2 locks on my axe.
One of them doesn't even connect to a lever!
It's just an independant change lock.

I love 'em!

E9
Ext. E9
B6
Ext. B6th
One Big Tuning
Specialty Tunings

It's all there!

I have em on my Sierra's. I like the tuning so I can go in and out of a 6th sound while playing E9th. I like the LOK when I want to go all out 6th for a song without having to hold it. As was mentioned earlier, tis better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it!!!!
Whip


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Whip Lashaway
Sierra E9/B6 12 string
Sierra E9/B6 14 string
78' Emmons D10 P/P

"If you lower your E's on your left knee, you HAVE to use your lok lever to be able to combine with MOST of the other levers"

I do NOT need any knee lever that I can't use with the E's lowered. And there are ONLY 2 knee levers I can't use when LKR right is engaged:

1. LKL raises 4 and 8 a half a tone.

2. LKL2 lowers 2 a half a tone, raises 9 and 10 a tone and a half.

There are no circumstances that I know of where I would ever use either of these knee levers with LKR. So respectfully Larry, you are incorrect about the LOK lever, at least in my case.

In fact, RKL (lowering the 6th and 10th strings a whole tone) IS used with EVERY knee lever on the left knee. So in my case I MUST lower the E's on LKR. I would lose soo much if I did it any other way.

Incidently, I studied every conceivable copedent on a universal for over 30 yrs. And NOT one gave me what I have with this copedent. I am well aware it is not for all, but for me it is THE perfect universal tuning. In other words, if I had to use ANY other U tuning, I would NOT play a universal.

carl

I have a lever lock for the E to Eb's, but I don't use it. I jump between the "modes" all the time, so the lock would just be a "lock" for my head also. But it's great to have it there in case I change my mind later.....

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Thanks Sveinung Lilleheier
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Kentucky Riders

Clearly, we apply changes to the same open tuning differently, Carl. I did the math too. There's more than one answer.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Guys, still waiting for an answer. Why shouldn't pedals 4 through 8 have the same order on a U as on C6? I understand pedal 6 has some advantages on a knee, but what about the others?

David,

In answer to your question, with the Lok Lever, there is no reason why a S12 or S14 can't have the pedal and kneelevers setup like a D10. As I explained in my previous post, this is entirely possible with the Sierra guitars (see their pedal/kneelever set-ups at their website). On my S14 my copedant is the same as Bill Stafford's. Pedals one through three are the Emmons E9; pedals 4 through 8 are the same as the traditional D10 C6th, except that on mine, pedal seven is on the inside LKL and I duplicate the "B" pedal on pedal seven. So, with mine "ChangeLok" engaged I can play my universal E9/B6 just like a D10 E9/B6 (not C6th because of the tuning).

I hope this isn't too confusing. Bill S. can probably describe it more clearly than I can. The bottom line is, it plays just like a D10.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn www.kevinfowler.com

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Glenn Suchan on 04 March 2003 at 03:06 PM.]</p></FONT>

My guess is that since most "stock" Universal setups have the E lowers on RKR, it's not comfortable or practical to use the right foot for a pedal or to bounce from P5 to P7 (or P8) with the left foot, so they put P8 on P4.

I've done that on my D-12 for 30+ years as I thought it would be easier than using both feet, plus Curly Chalker's chart showed these changes together. By the time I saw Buddy Emmons use both feet and learned about the chords available with stock P4 and P5, and P7 and P8, I was too set in my ways to change.

Maybe it's still not too late to change.

"Guys, still waiting for an answer. Why shouldn't pedals 4 through 8 have the same order on a U as on C6? I understand pedal 6 has some advantages on a knee, but what about the others?"

Dave,

There are a number of U-12's setup exactly (pedals that is), like a D-10. One of the things that has been happening is in order here. Even when one stays focused on D-10's many players have opted to change things. The two most common anaomolies is pedal 4 and pedal 8. I would say that most keep 5, 6 and 7 where they are in relationship to each other.

Some have long since sacrificed pedal 4 and moved pedal 8 in its place. This so they can quickly go from Boowah to pedal 5 and the reverse. Jeff Newman has been doing this for many years. Most of the players in the Atlanta area, have pedal 8 on LKL. And if you asked them, they love it there.

So when going to U-12's the trend to change the 'standard' setup was already being changed. And usually the first to go on U's is pedal 4. Others go a step further and get rid of the C pedal. Etc.

But there are still plenty who keep it the standard D-10 way. So if you like it, it will work ok. Remember there ARE sacrifices if one tries to duplicate every single change going from a D-10 to a U-12.

Here is one caveat that has to be (going from D-10 to U-12), and that is the lowering of 5 and 10 on the standard 5 knee lever setups. On U's that bottom change is sacrificed to accomadate the C to B change on the C neck of D-10's.

Either nobody has approached this simple aspect of the question and answer, or I've just glazed over it in some of the posts............What I suggest/advocate/believe/whatever re: the lever lock:

If you are an experienced D-10 player with no interest in relearning your approach to the C6 neck (and I can fully appreciate this) then I believe the lock is the natural choice. The B6 side of the U-12 can do it all and with the lock there is very little learning curve. However, if you are flexible and not committed in your approach to the 6th side, if you are an S-10 E9 player looking to expand, or if you are a beginner looking for a single neck with maximum (unlimited) growth potential and if you are interested in the idea of the 12 string as an "enhanced" E9 and an "enhanced" B6--or more correctly, as a tuning that can do everthing the E9 can do and more----everything the C6 can do and more..........then you would do well to go without the lock and to incorporate the P6-transfer-to-a-lever modification. I see no reason for an accomplished C6 player to want to change his thinking, unless he's looking for a change. But anyone else would gain a lot of versatility by approaching this as a virtual merger of the two necks with the whole being greater than the sum, and hence, without the lock.

And after all this--I can appreciate the mind-set of two necks. I sometimes wonder if I'm missing something by not going D-10. Which is a whole nother subject that has been hashed nearly to death. You gotta make your choice and move on. (Let's not get sidetracked).

I have a Sierra Session U12 with LKR lowering the E's. I mainly use the lock. The reason is that on the few occasions I have experimented with holding in the LKR while accessing the B6th 'side', I find it difficult to rock off pedal combinations e.g from 5&6 to 6. I could fix that by moving 6 to a lever but then the problem would still exist with 7&8 to 8 say.
How do people get around this problem ?

What do you use 7 and 8 together for, Mic?
I've never found a good use for that combination. All of the common combinations (5&6, 5&7, 6&7) are available without using both feet.

Just out of curiosity, I want to see someone who lowers E's on LKR to hold LKR while pressing two B6 pedals and rocking accurately back and forth accurately without moving the knee lever. I've tried it and the difference in ease of combining pedals and levers that I use -- compared with lowering E's on the right knee -- is SUBSTANTIAL.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Larry,

You make a very good point. I will conceed that is not easy to hold LKR engaged and rock two adjacent pedals. But it can be done. That was one difficult thing for me to learn to do when I went universal. But now I am doing it quite well.

Having said that, the other advantages far outweighed my leaving LKR where it always was. After 3 years now I am just as comfortable with it that I am not even aware I am doing it.

And because I have relocated pedal 6 to RKR, it removes one of the MAIN pedals that I used to "rock" with. True I do ocassionally rock 5 and 7, or 7 and 8. But not too much.

You asked about 7 and 8. I used this all the time because I play a lot of JB stuff in the B6 mode using his "B11" style tuning. Only in this case it becomes G#11 (open strings) with pedal 7 and 8 engaged. So for me it is an absolute must.

Since putting pedal 6 on RKR brought pedal 5 and 8 closer by 2 and 3/8", I have had no problem going from 8 to 5 or 5 to 8 rapidly.

On my D-10 I have pedal 8 on LKL (C6 knee lever). And I thought I might miss it putting it back on the floor. But such has not been the case.

carl

Carl,
Do you still lower your 2nd string on the RKR?

Guys, thanks for explaining why the order of the B6 pedals is sometimes changed on universals from what is standard on C6. I get the picture and now have some interesting food for thought. At some point I'm going to take a lesson or two on C6 from Jim Cohen (who plays D10) and I'm sure we will have some problems translating his C6 approach to what I would have to do on my U12. So I was thinking of just changing the pedal order to match his, but now I will have to think about that. {

Dave,
I think you'll find that pedal order is not really that big a thing. And, BTW, you will find some C6 D-10 players who have moved those two pedals together. Two things happened: a lot of folks found the A to B change on 4 and 8 to be one they didn't use often, thus leaving a 'hole'; and the obvious I IV relationship of the 'boo wah' pedal (A7#9 on C6) and what is usually on P5 (D9 on C6) resulted in skipping over two pedals to play a common change. Moving the 'boo wah' pedal to P4 resolved both. Many folks found something else to put on a pedal -- some put the A to Bb change there (works better on a lever, though) -- and some removed a pedal. I believe Bobbe Seymour did that, as I recall. (correct me if I misspoke, BS)

The smartest thing you said is that you plan to take lessons from Cohen. He has a great handle on C6 and I'm sure you'll learn loads. Don't sweat the pedal order -- learn what they DO -- what chord is formed -- where the triad tones are -- where the color tones are -- and also learn how they are used. Think from the bottom up for B6 and don't let Jimbaux convince you that the uni was the wrong decision.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro