Invent a Pulling System:

Gene H. Brown · Post by **Gene H. Brown** » 20 Feb 2003 4:14 pm

I don't know if I'm talking nonsense here, but I have an idea and wonder if it could be done.
Why couldn't a Steel Guitar Manufacturer invent a pulling system where they're guitars would allow for a 25% or 30% bend in the string at the changer end , instead of the standard 90% bend. Looks to me like this wouldn't be that hard to do, and I would think it would almost double the life of the strings. It just figures that the nore you bend a string, the quicker it's going to break.
Any takers on this, I really haven't researched this, just an idea of sorts, and like I say, maybe it can't be done.
Thanks
Gene

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If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 20 Feb 2003 4:29 pm

Gene,

You are too late.

Anapeg does just that. In fact they go one step further. The string is pulled through the body of this 30 degree changer finger and emerges just before it goes over the highest part of the finger. An incredible piece of engineering.

If you can procure the August/September 1997 issue of "The Pedal Steel Guitar Newsletter" and look on page 4, you will see precisely what I am talking about.

And yes, that would drastically cut down on string breakage, but it is NOT necessary on the Anapeg, because this changer is also a lateral moving changer (like Excels) and as such does NOT break strings.

But the idea is a great one. If I am not mistaken I seem to recall that Williams may be doing something similar on his guitars. I stand corrected if I am wrong.

carl

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 20 Feb 2003 4:32 pm

90 % of what?

A larger changer radius would allow less bending or flexing of the string, but at the cost of some tone (sustain and high frequencies).

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 20 Feb 2003 4:48 pm

Listen to Earnest, he knows of what he's spaketh! It makes NO difference to string life how far around the finger the string goes, what matters is the radius only. The string always breaks at the radius. Bigger the radius, the longer the string life, however, this larger curve does hurt sustain. This is a trade off and is the reason the present day standard radius is the most accepted one. Some of you guys may remember Ron Lashley saying this before he passed away, right here on this forum. I spent good time proving this two years ago on this forum also. Remember: "A bent string is a spent string?". Wrong, All strings bend, the sharper the bend, the shorter the string life. The less the bend, the worse the sustain. Factoid!

Milo Stringbender III (Catch 23)

Gene, I can hear you thinking all the way down here in Nashville, keep it up, I'm looking for another engineer, can I pay you in Canadian money?

Bill Hanky, go get me some Italian food.(and a spelling book!) [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 20 February 2003 at 04:51 PM.][This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 20 February 2003 at 04:52 PM.]

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 20 Feb 2003 4:59 pm

Gene, what you are saying is correct, but what you would be giving up in sustain tone and the "Sitar" twang wouldn't be worth it. Just get Cobra Coil strings, put them on correctly, and change them in a reasonable legnth of time and you should be a "happy but cold" Canadian camper.
Your great friend,
Buster Stringzoffer

Gene H. Brown · Post by **Gene H. Brown** » 20 Feb 2003 5:26 pm

Bobbe,
You are an amazing man!!!!!!!!!!! Why didn't I think of that, so if I were to put a 20" bicycle rim on the bridge for a roller , I shouldn't have to change that string for years, Right Bobbe? Think of the prospects, this changes my whole outlook on life and YES I will come to work for you in Canadian money, even though I am an American Citizen, but only after I receive your check for travel money, I neeeeeed to geeeeet ouuuuuut offffffff thhhhhhhhis cooooooooold weeeeaaaattthhher, brrrr!!!! Maybe you can fly up in your twin engine aeroplane and get me. It's 30 below celcius right now, and if you don't know what celcius means, just stick your head out the door and you'll soon know.LOL Thanks Bobbe

Gene

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If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!

[This message was edited by Gene H. Brown on 20 February 2003 at 05:27 PM.]

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 20 Feb 2003 5:59 pm

Gene, I'd hire you for nothing else than your humor! A 20" bicyle wheel? Yea, I guess the string would last forever, but the sustain wouldn't be much! Too much surface against the string. It should roll good though, (if the tire didn't go flat!)
Let's see now, that's 20 , 20 inch bicycle wheels lined up at the changer end, seems like it would need to be a somewhat larger guitar, possibly MSA or Sierra would be intrested in this idea. Could the wheel be made of tupperware? Just kidding, don't get all riled up guys.

I. Gunna Gedowdahere III (now)

Gene H. Brown · Post by **Gene H. Brown** » 20 Feb 2003 6:02 pm

Bobbe, you got it all wrong, you don't use the tire , just the wheel, and it has to be chrome, mainly for looks, of course this would be a stand up model, maybe even have a ladder to get up to the necks, ha.

Love yer comeback Bobbe!

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If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 20 Feb 2003 6:36 pm

I don't recall Ron Lashley ever being on this forum, but maybe I missed it.

This is what he told me years ago. Which I posted about 3 years ago.

He said in the early days of developement of the P/P Emmons, he tried different radii; and different axle diameters; and different materials in developing the changer.

What he ended up after many hours of study and tests using Nashville players was:

1. A radius of 3/8 inch (3/4 inch diameter) changer finger.

2. The thickness of the material around the axle needed to be 1/8".

3. The material needs to be aluminum.

Upon quizzing him at length, he added, aluminum gave the best sustain. He said he knew that a larger diameter changer would lengthen string life, but the trade off was tone. He also said that the 1/8" thick wall of material around the axle played a critical role in tone.

So he settled on a 3/4" diameter changer with a half inch axle. After I posted this, someone responded that the axle is 9/16".

I do not know. All I know is what Ron told me.

God rest Ron's soul.

carl

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 20 Feb 2003 6:59 pm

Okay, how about this one! Instead of doing all the pulling at one end of the string, let's design "dual" changers that pull equally at both ends of the string! Just think about it...there would be no possibility of intonation problems (as you have with linear changers), and the stresses would be cut in half...half the bending at each end of the string! Result? Instantly, you would double the string life!!!

(You're welcome! Royalty payments graciously accepted.)[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 20 February 2003 at 07:01 PM.]

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 20 Feb 2003 7:17 pm

Instantly, you would double the cost!!!

Jeff Peterson · Post by **Jeff Peterson** » 20 Feb 2003 8:09 pm

C'mon Carl, Ron Sr. did speak to just a few more people than you from time to time.
Bobbe, you a hoot!
Want to fix the 'radius' question? Change your dang strings more often! That does not mean bumping up from 2 to 3 times a year.[This message was edited by Jeff Peterson on 20 February 2003 at 08:36 PM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 20 Feb 2003 8:56 pm

Jeff,

WHO in the pluperfect hallelujah ever said he didn't?

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 20 Feb 2003 10:02 pm

Whhhaaaattt?

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 21 Feb 2003 12:14 am

Bobbe Seymour,

I'll seek out the best Italian spaghetti in the eateries, if you let us have the pleasure of joining you, as you enjoy your favorite foods. I hope that we will be able to serve you the best in food, and friendship, whenever you visit these beautiful Berkshire Hills, in western Massachusetts.

Beth and I played your CD of Ray Price tunes, (PRICE-LESS) enroute to Great Barrinton, MA today. We ordered a pizza, and salad. It was pleasant for a change, with sunshine, and temps. in the 40's. Thanks for the quips in this thread. We were able to get a good chuckle while reading them.

Bill H.

Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 21 Feb 2003 12:57 pm

So that´s why. Sometimes during the day when there wasn´t much to do at the office I have already "designed my own steel" and made sketches on paper of a changer finger with a "softer" radius to prevent string breakage. I´ve never thought of the sustain issue. Thanks guys. You learn something new here all the time.

Regards, Joe H.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 21 Feb 2003 4:00 pm

Instantly, you would double the cost!!!

Uhhhh...Earnest, (with all due respect), this would only be true if all you had was a changer!

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 21 Feb 2003 11:00 pm

About that pasta:
Have you ever noticed if you twist that spaghetti between the tines of your fork it will break? This creates a radius too small for the spaghetti.You must twirl it around the entire fork with a radius of at least 9/16" or diameter of 1&1/8"

That angel hair stuff is really bad about breaking.

Rick

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 22 Feb 2003 2:35 am

By now, virtually everyone knows that pound for pound, spaghetti can hold its own, against scalding hot water, large stirring utensils, and the "Niagra Falls" trip into the sieve. Not until it is wound gracefully on a large soup spoon, and placed between the gnashing ivories of a famished steel guitarist, will it undergo noticeable changes.

All kidding aside, topped with meatballs, special sauces, and grated cheese, spaghetti is a perfect food to sustain a steel guitarist, should he/she be caught up in overtime. By all means, include fresh vienna bread, and a colorful salad.

Bill H.

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 22 Feb 2003 5:01 am

Bill is correct...the late great steel player, Al Dente, was proof of this. Even carbinet drop never deterred him!

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 22 Feb 2003 10:01 am

All kidding aside, topped with meatballs, special sauces, and grated cheese, spaghetti is a perfect food to sustain a steel guitarist, should he/she be caught up in overtime. By all means, include fresh vienna bread, and a colorful salad.

Bill, add a glass of Merlot to that and we are in agreement, 100 percent.

But remember this:
If you are continuosly breaking that third string, you are probably not eating enough chili. Getting enough chili is the only remedy for this.

Rick

Bill Myrick · Post by **Bill Myrick** » 23 Feb 2003 7:23 am

Back to Gene's idea --- if I were to try this, what would be a better wheel ---a Schwyn or a Western Flyer ??? - Do I leave the coaster brake on it for a stop ??? -

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 23 Feb 2003 10:40 am

Yes, this is not a silly question, the coaster break will help hold (lock) the string in tune, IF you really want to be in tune. Tuning is a very subjective thing, unlike tone, which is either good or bad. Even though most folks don't know the difference. I feel the "Schwinn cam lock" wheel breaking system" is the best for holding in tune, Franklin,(the Polish aircraft engine builder, not the Madison TN.steel guitar guy)also builds a great unit in the Checzk Republic. They don't deliver, you'll have to go get it. (don't go through Paris). (or Bagdad, for a while)

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 23 Feb 2003 1:03 pm

If you eat enough sphagetti, your belly could protrude enough under the guitar to deter Cabinet Drop.

Even though your nipples might be where your belly button is now.

[This message was edited by Jim Bob Sedgwick on 23 February 2003 at 01:04 PM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 23 Feb 2003 3:05 pm

Jim Bob,

Actually, in terms of wise choices to avert weight gains, spaghetti is excellent. Somewhere back in history, restaurateurs adapted the notion that it should be served on platters, with a loaf of vienna bread. They also try to outdo their nearest competitor by enlarging the meatballs. My remedy for that equation is to separate the serving, and take 1/2 of it home for the following day.

Bill H.