Lever lock questions

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

On a typical universal tuning (E9/B6) some people apparently use a lever lock set-up so they don't have to hold the E lower lever in place when playing B6th style.

Does that mean that when the lever lock is engaged they then use a separate lever or pedal to lower the lower Eb (Eb due to the lever lock) down to D, and to raise the higher Eb back up to E. I understand how this equates to the normal P6 function on standard C6th tuning? I think the answer must be yes, but I've never seen or played such a steel.

Further question related to lever locks. What do you thing would be the likelihood of success if one set up a lever lock on a modified 10 string universal tuning where the lever lock not only lowered the two E strings down to E flats, but it also lowered the ninth string D down to B (1 & 1/2 steps), and it lowered the tenth string B down to G# (also 1 & 1/2 steps)?

That would preserve the normal E9 lower string configuration (which is highly important for a guy like me that's too old to make radical changes), plus it puts the C6th (B6th) lower strings into proper alignment for limited C6th style playing, which is more than adequate for me.

Somebody has to have already tried this.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

First part of your question, yes. P6 over-rides the lowered 4th string and brings it back up to E. And it further lowers the 8th string to D.

I've never had a lock so I won't comment on your second question.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Thanks for the response Jon. I'd sure like to see some pictures of these devices, particularly the lever itself as you see it when playing.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Further question: Can a lever lock do more then just the changes of the "regular" knee lever being locked? I would want a lever lock that locked both the E lowers, but also locked two more lower stings (9th and 10th) in lower pitches.

But I would not want the "regular" E lower knee lever to lower those two lower strings. So the lever lock needs to be independent from the "regular" E lower lever. Is that possible?
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

Again, never having even seen a lever in person, I now wonder if I've got it all wrong. I always assumed that you hit the lever (E-lower) and then locked it in place with the lock. But now I wonder if you don't hit the lever but rather just activate the lock which moves the changer and locks it, all-in-one.

My suspicion, though, is that the lock latches the cross shaft and if you wanted to lock multiple functions like that you would need multiple locks.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

The more I think about this, I suppose it could be done either way. One way, you just lock an existing lever. The other way, you essentially have an entirely separate lever that happens to be locking and is operated by your right hand. With the later approach, there is no reason the locking lever has to have the same changes as any other pedal or lever. That's what I want.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

That would be some tough leverage (an all-in-one hand lever and lock) unless you had a good sized shaft---like a gear shift.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Paul,
I think Forum member Tony Glassman has experimented with the multiple changes that you are asking about, when he was trying to work out a Universal tuning on a Zum 12-string that kept the dedicated D-string in the tuning.
You might look up some of his posts on the subject.

On a Kline S12U that I bought used a while back, the LKR lowers the E's, like an Emmons setup, and then the RKR also lowers the E's, but has a lever lock.
I think the original owner only used the RKR to lock into B6th. For some reason the RKR did not lower the D# to C#, but if I had a dedicated B6th lock lever, it would lower the E's (strings four and eight), and the D# to C#, and not affect any other pedals/levers. Of course this would require more than a standard 3-raise, 3-lower, changer, which I don't have.

On my Sierra I can lock my E-to-Eb lever (RKR) to Eb. Then I also have a lever that only lowers D#-to-C#, and it is just a plastic knob, hooked to some linkage to drop the D# to C#, that I turn to the left to engage... there is no knee lever on the cross rod.
'Works for my needs.

I think MSA and Excell Universals have greater raise/lower capability (5-raise/5-lower or more).

Speaking of a Gear Shift, here is a pic of an Excell brand S12U lever lock:

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

Tony Glassman did indeed set up a couple of Zumsteel Unis with this setup, and I own one of them. The one I own uses the 8th pedal to lower the E's, and also lowers string 2 to C# (the equivalent of the D-string on Emmons C6 tuning) and lowers strings 9 and 10 to match the standard Uni/C6 tuning. Thus, there is a completely standard E9 tuning on the top 10 strings, and also a standard B6 tuning, but with both of the notes used on the 1 string, found on strings 1 and 2. Grips change a little in C6 as string 3 is not part of the standard C6/B6 tuning.

You can read about this in these posts:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=227226&highlight=

general universal discussion, with my comments on Tony's coped.

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=220213

Tony discusses the coped

Obvious trade-off is one can not go with the "one big tuning" concept, but must choose E9 or C6.

Biggest problem is getting string 10 to lower accurately each time. I usually quickly tweak it by ear when engaging or disengaging the lever lock. The range of notes required from this string is really pushing what is possible, going from G# all the way up to C#.

Doug
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Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Thanks for the links Doug. So this has been tried regarding the 9th and 10th strings. It makes sense to me to increase the gauge on those strings. That would take less travel and make them less floppy when lowered. Hopefully the tuning would be more reliable.

The photo of the lever lock on the Excel is interesting. That's the idea I have in mind, but I don't get why it was put where you need to operate it with your left hand, which means you have to stop playing to operate it. I did an internet search and found a picture of another Excel with the locking lever near the pickup/changer end. That makes a lot more sense.

Can anyone tell me or show me how Williams does these lever locks? They do list this as an option in their price sheet.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I haven't seen a Williams up close in a while, but the last time I saw one at a Convention the Lock was a like a mini knee lever. You engage the E-to-Eb lever, then slide the lock lever into place, which locks the E-to-Eb lever in place. You reach under the steel to engage it. Seemed to work well and was easy enough to use.

fwiw, my thought about having two levers is that you want to keep your E-to-Eb lever functioning as smoothly/quickly as possible for general E9th ease of playability.
Then have a another way to lock into other changes.

I don't keep an dedicated D-string in my tuning, so I'll defer to those who do.

You might also check out Larry Bell's informative website on S12U methodologies.

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

I loaded some pictures of the underside of my U-12 Williams, along with a description of the lock lever on this thread:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=2221915#2221915

And, yes, you do want the lock on a separate lever with all of your changes so that you keep your lever with the E lowers for normal playing. I almost never use the lock, as I prefer treating the Uni as one big tuning. But, if you just have to play "The Night Life" or something, then the lock is handy.

Billy Cooper in Virginia, was trying to do a 10 string Uni with both complete tunings 10 or 15 years ago, but, as far as I know, nothing ever came of it. He had the setup on a GFI with a gear shift type of lock lever on it... I saw it in the shop, and we talked about it for a couple of minutes.... sounded cool.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Thanks for the link to the pictures Mike. That helps a lot.

If I did a 10 string universal I would be leaving off the equivalent of the low F and C from the C6th. I'm just never going to be much of a C6th player, as most bands I work with don't play music that calls for it. I'm thinking I could get by without those low strings, for the rare occasions when C6th style is called for. I must have the full E9 set-up, but I can compromise a lot on the C6th side. If I did a 12 string universal I think I would still want a lever lock, and I would keep the D and B strings as normal for E9, and then drop them with the lever lock.

I want as small, light and compact a steel as is possible while still being able to play most of the music. I'm growing weary of the D10.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

Harry Johansen, forum member from Norway, has a Fulawka Uni with a lever lock. He started with a coped similar to what Tony Glassman had, but has since gone to a more standard Universal tuning. I think he had problems as well with the 10th string being asked to do too much. You could contact him about how Ed does his lever lock - I don't remember details, but think he also put it on the last pedal (just need one more than you originally thought)and maybe has a pin that slips behind the pedal crank so it stay engaged.
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Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental!

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

If you just need to play a few 6th licks on an E9th S10 every once in a while, There are some courses available that show how to do that type of thing.
Bascally you can lower you E's and you are in B6th, or with the AB pedals down you are in A6th.
One 1-on-1 lesson with someone who is good at that would probably go a long way.
You probably don't need a Lock.

I converted a late-'70's Sho-Bud Pro-1 into an S10 Uni 7x5 (actually the work was done by Jeff Suratt at the Marrs shop).
It is basically the top 10 strings of an E9/B6 Uni (no dedicated D string).

One way to think of things that helps me... Every Steel guitar ever made regardless of number of strings/necks/pedals/levers/tunings is basically "Universal".

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

I see a significant problem with a lever lock with all those lowers. It will cause the opposite of cabinet drop. Lowering the tension on 4 or 5 strings, with some of the lowers being 1 & 1/2 steps, will decrease the overall tension on the cabinet significantly and cause the rest of the strings to go sharp. And my experience tells me that some strings will go sharp much more than others, i.e., a plain sixth string. So that brings into play the need for compensators. This hypothetical steel is getting way too complicated.

A lever lock on just the E lowers would probably work just fine. But I can't imagine trying to play E9 without the low D string, and a lever to get a D won't cut it.

Maybe I'll just pick up a single 10 E9 steel for those bands where that's all I need.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

Paul,

one more thing that I'm thinking about trying with the 10 string uni is tuning to the top 10 strings of the uni, using the E lowers in the usual way, but having a lock lever to lock string 9 and 10 to D and B...... kind of like a lock for E9. I do have that change on a 6th lever on my U-12.... for those times when I want to play like I have a real E9 set of low end strings.

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Paul, the biggest component of cabinet drop isn't the pull train, it comes mainly from feet mashing the pedals past the stop, pulling on the guitar (which is why few complain about drop from knees, the adductors and abductors grow weary of wasted effort, so we don't overpower the levers).
Reverse cabinet drop could really only happen in a push-pull, since lowers still pull the cab on an all-pull guitar.
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