The Steel Guitar Forum

For over 40 years I wanted one. Finally, 2 weeks ago I put out a feeler on the "buy and sell" section; In less than 5 hours got a reply from my dear friend Bobbe Seymour.

"I have a Fender in the original box (not new of course). It is from Juaquin Murphey's estate and looks great".

So, I bought it.

It arrived last Thursday. And when I plugged it in, my heart sank. The volume worked. The tone didn't. This was no great shakes really. Since my background is half electronics, I figured it would be a snap to fix.

So I took the bottom cover off of it. Didn't see anything broken or not connected. Marveled at Leo Fender's wizardy of just how he intergrated volume and tone in a single pedal. What a genious he was.

So got my trusty meter out and started testing everything. Noticed that both pots were kinda stiff. Notices what looked like possibly a bad ground on the volume pot. Noticed one of the 3 control strings was not original. Noticed that it needed a good bath. Plus some overall lubrication.

So took it completely apart. Cleaned everything thorougly. Even put silicon lube on the 3, 3" disks that the tone plate pivots on (another genious thing Leo did). Oiled the shafts of the two pots. Then put everything back. Noticed a price sticker was on the volume pot. It said $3.50. So KNEW this pot was OLD. And I mean OLD!

Noticed the tone pot was an Allen Bradley (as was the vol pot). But it had a hole in the back of it. In all my time I have never seen one like it. So it must be original.

I checked the cap with a "capicator checker" from my days as an electtonic technician. It showed perfect. Found that BOTH pots were 250K pots. And the tone pot was linear taper, The volume pot was audio taper.

I am curious about the volume ohmic value. For those of you who KNOW, is 250K correct for this pedal? Checked these pots and except for the usual "wear" noise, they checked out ok.

After shining it all up beautifully and rubber cementing the rubber boot back onto the metal tone plate, it looked brand new. So, I plugged it back in. Guess what?

The tone control worked just a LITTLE Bit. Barely noticable tone change from full left to full right. BUT, it worked in reverse! Even though it WAS wired correctly!!! Took the thing apart. Checked everything again. Resoldered where necessary. Added a wire ground to one of the pots (not trusting the "frame" ground). Connected it back to my amp.

SAME exact thing.

So I slept on it last night. I did not get one total hours sleep all night long. Racked my brain. Thought of every conceivable possibility. NOTHING made sense to me. The thing SHOULD have worked. But it didn't.

Was having breakfast with my wife. And in talking to her about it, Jesus was leading me into to something. I said, "I KNOW this is not going to work!. But I have tried EVERYthing else." OH ye of little faith!

She followed me to the music room. Where I tried out my "theory". Guess what? It worked like a charm. NOT only did it work like a charm, there was that beautiful "Boowah". And the action was Not reversed!

PLUS this. My top three strings on my Excel NOW have, for the first time in almost 3 years, the SAME volume as all the rest. I could NOT believe what was coming out of my amp. My wife even noticed it. Totally blew me away.

And just exactly what cured BOTH problems? OK, are you players ready for this? I had used from day ONE on my Peavey setup a 3 wire cord from guitar to amp to pedal to amp. JUST like I used on my Session 500!

But I am NOT using that now. I am using the old fashioned 2 cable setup; Guitar to pedal to amp. I cannot believe this. Now before you jump; the cables were NOT installed incorrectly. I checked that 100 and 57 times since last Thursday. OK! OK, so it was only 6 times. (but last night I checked it 151 time in my mind; if I checked it ONCT!!)

For some reason, those two "Affects Jacks" on my amp ain't right. Sunthins wrong in Denmark. Oops, Meridian! I have not a clue what and I do not care. All I know is my dream of 40 yrs just came true. Praise Jesus' holy name. I am one happy dude right at this moment.

NOW I can once again play "Together Again" and listen to that 3rd string bring goosebumps on my spine. AND now I can do to "Steelin the Blues" what I hear on the master's record.

So, Jesus in his guiding me, led me to the cause of two different problems. The Lord surely does work in strange ways. Which I love him for it.

God bless you all, (gotta go play "I'm so Lonesome I Could Cry" and "Wang Wang Blues" and "Steelin the Blues" and "Moanin the Blues". Oh man oh man. Yippee!!

Now, IF I could only learn to play. Oh well.

carl <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by C Dixon on 20 January 2003 at 12:28 PM.]</p></FONT>

Congratulations Carl! Sometimes, we "stumble" across the easist soultion, and it turns out to be the right one.

Like you have found out...with the old pedals...the old "2-wire" hookup usually works best.

I tried the "3-wire" hookup once, and my immediate reaction was..."What the heck is everybody raving about? It sounds a little different, but not any better." There have been many additions, gadgets, and innovations with pedal steel to try and get the "old '60s sound", but it really doesn't get any simpler (or better, IMHO) than steel-pedal-amp.

I don't know why it fixed your top three strings, but I'm pretty sure why your tone control didn't work. The three cable setup is designed to let the volume pot become the volume control for the preamp. The tone pot would do next to nothing because the amp circuit isn't designed for it, and probably couldn't be even if they wanted to.

As a follow up, I have several questions of you pros:

1. Where can I buy string locally that would be equivalent to what the original string was?

2. What kind of glue did they use to put the rubber top on the tone plate? It appears to be the same brown gook used by some to put fret boards on PSG's. Where can I get it? Is there a trade name for this glue?

3. What kind of solvent is used to remove this glue? Will a given solvent hurt the rubber foot pad?

5. Along with the ohmic values for the Volume and Tone pots, what SHOULD their "tapers" be?

6. Where can one find a similar rubber "foot" that goes on the bottom? I would like to replace all 4 of them, as they are pretty worn down and smooth.

Thanking you in advance, and God bless you all,

carl

Jim
You just answered a question I've had for a long time. I too, like brother Carl, found the vol/tone pedal unsatisfactory when used anywhere except directly from the guitar.

When I was carrying a rack unit with me, I'd go direct from the guitar to the rack, then the pedal, then the amp. Tone control sucked big time. When the pedal came straight from the amp, it worked charmingly.

Since I now only use the vol/tone pedal with retro rigs, I don't have a rack or an effects loop to deal with, so all is hunky-dory.

BTW, nice to see you back Carl.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

For several years in the old , old days, all we used was Steel, amp and pedal.

I never had any problem with my 1946 Rocco tone expressor,(jody knows about this one, he knew the guy that invented it) or my 1950 Bigsby volume/tone pedal. I liked my Rocco, it had brackets to slip my foot into, so it didn't slip when I went from bass to treble...oh those were the days...al BTW , Good to see you on the Forum again, Carl...

Carl, Gene Fields may know the answers to your questions. Here is a link to his website where you can get his email address and phone number:
http://www.gfimusicalproducts.com/ <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jim Smith on 21 January 2003 at 08:07 PM.]</p></FONT>

Thanks Jim,

But Carl.....where are you going to put those two little micro-switches you told us about ??? And you thought I'd forgotten that !!

Since I used to have one of those Fender volume tone pedals I am partial towards them and I was wondering why it wouldn't be easier to put a second switch on the guitar to change your tuning cross-overs. Seems like a single switch on the guitar would be a lot easier than mounting two micros in the pedal. At least that way you wouldn't need lines going to the pedal because it would all be on the guitar. I hope I'm not sounding presumptuous but I did want you to know I was intrigued by your tuning ideas.

Regards, Paul

Hey Paul,

Interesting you should ask. My MAIN reason for buying the Fender volume/tone pedal was precisely so I could mount the two micro switches in it. In fact before I ever checked out the vol/tone aspects I yanked that bottom plate to see just how much aggravation I might run into.

Thank the good Lord, there is more than enough room. In fact so much that I am going to add another goody in it. Wiring to and from it is a cinch. And is already begun with appropriate jacks to make it simple.

Putting a switch on top of the guitar to activate the two sets of "switchovers" would defeat the entire purpose. Because there is no way good way to throw the switch while playing. Which is the whole concept.

In other words, If I want RKR say, to switch from raising 4 a half a tone and lowering 8 whole tone; to raising 1 and 7 a whole tone and raising 2 a half a tone, it has to be instant.

You can think of the whole idea as the "shift" key on a keyboard when one wants to captilize a letter. Rather than the "capslock" feature. In a word the above "switchover", might be used for just one note or chord. This would be the way all the switchovers work throughout a song.

And just like the "shift" key on a keyboard, I am sure it would be subconscious within just a short "warp" period. Incidently, there WILL be a switch on the top of the guitar to 'deactivate' the switchover switches and at the same time, activate the tone function of the pedal.

The reason for this is to allow "boowah" sounds when playing JB. Then the switch will be thown back to reactivate the microswitches when playing all other kinds of songs. This was in the plans from the beginning.

Thanks for asking. My recovering the volume level on the 1st three strings has really spurred my enthusiasm once again. Cabinet drop is still a bugger. The tops of the strings at the nut not being flat, I can, and WILL solve.

So with God's guidance, looks like it is back on the front burner again.

God bless you Paul, and all the rest of you too,

carl

I use the 3 chord patch on my Nashville 400 and have for 6 or 7 years now. Once at a gig on lead guitar my Fender tube amp was acting up so I got my 400 out of the van and hooked it up normally as I would for guitar, guitar to effects to amp. The dang thing distorted big time. I went ahead and did the last set with the tube amp again and checked out everything the next day. I set up the 400 with the steel and it worked as good as always. Then I set it up with guitar and checked it out and it distorted. What I discovered was that if I took a small 6" patch chord and connected the in and out jacks on the front where I usually hooked my volume pedal it didn't distort. Maybe using those two jacks like that for so long did something to the circuit where it won't work unless something is in them. I've used the amp on guitar a couple of times after that and if I plug the patch cord in the front it doesn't distort but if I leave 'em open it does. What the heck is going on here?

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Ahhhh said the little skunk as he turned upwind. It all comes back to me now !!

Regards, Paul <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Paul Graupp on 22 January 2003 at 12:39 PM.]</p></FONT>

I'm working on a steel right now for a fellow who has a mint Fender volume-tone pedal. While testing out the guitar I used his volume pedal. It requires a lot of movement to get from low to high volume. Is that the characteristic of the 250K pot? Has anyone ever replaced the pot with a 500K pot? If so, does that shorten the stroke to get a faster volume increase?

And Carl, don't forget to play "Three String Swing"---

Bill Stafford

Jerry,

Regarding the problem with the in/out jacks on your '400, I'd bet a cup of coffee that the problem is gunk in the jacks which is causing poor connections. These are closed circuit jacks, which means they make a connection to each other when there's no plug inserted. If there's a lot of accumulated gunk between the contacts, they won't make a good connection when you unplug the jumper.

Go to a place that sells TV parts (or to Radio Shack) and get a small can of tuner spray. Spray a shot into each jack,then work a plug in and out of the jack several times. Give it a try without the jumper cable.

If your distortion is still there, you may have to drop the chassis out of the amp to get the spray to where it needs to be. Remove 4 screws on rear cover and 4 screws on the top - WATCH OUT! CHASSIS IS HEAVY!. Then spray a shot into the back of each jack from the inside of the chassis. As before, work a plug in and out of the jack to allow the cleaner to "scrub" the gunk off.

When using tuner spray, less is better. You don't want the stuff dripping all over the place. Good luck.

Mike


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Mike Harmon
Fulawka S10 3 & 5
Nashville 400

Bill,

Right on Brother. But ONLY after you teach me how! Cuz I KNOW when you teach me I will love it because everything you play I dearly love. "Mr smooth" does not begin to describe your playing virtuoso. Love you dear friend.

Fred, speaking of the travel on the Fender volume pedal. I don't believe it would make any difference in travel; going from a 250K to a 500K. Here is why. Assuming the tapers (linear, audio or reverse audio) were the same, let's say there is 10 microvolts (sound level) at the ungrounded end of the pots. Then BOTH pots' center terminals would reach 5 volts (sound level) at the exact same position of travel of the wiper. Now if you canged the taper of one versus the other, then it would be different.

The reason for using a 500K versus a 250K for the volume pot; the higher the ohmage, the less "loading" the pot has on the pu. With ever higher ohm values for pu's, the standard 250K was raised to 500K to accomadate this.

With ever higher powered amps (louder playing styles), players noted a slight loss of power if they plugged directly into amps versus going thru a volume pedal; EVEN with the pot wide open.

The 500K then considerably improved on this problem.

God bless Bill, Fred, and ALL of you,

carl

<SMALL>players noted a slight loss of power if they plugged directly into amps versus going thru a volume pedal; EVEN with the pot wide open.</SMALL>

Carl, I think you meant it the other way around, didn't you? Going into the amp directly would be louder than going through the resistance of a volume pedal.

INDEED I did Jim. Thanks for correcting that obvious goof.

Bless you friend,

carl

Fred, it sounds like someone may have installed a linear taper pot instead of a logarithmic taper. To check it, set the pot to half way and measure the resistance from the wiper to each end. If they are the same, then that's the problem.

I thought tone pots were supposed to be linear.

Jim,

Tone pots depend on what the desired affect is when turning the shaft. If one wants a gradually increasing amount of treble "fall off" (ever bassier sound) over the entire travel of the pot, you would use a tapered pot.

If on the otherhand; if one wanted a Boowah sound, you would use a linear pot. The reason for this has to do with how sound is perceived in the human brain.

IE, the brain hears sound logarithmically rather than linearly as sound levels change. The same is true to a lessor extent when one hears changes in tone. This is why, we need to use a logarithmic tapered pot for volume controls in amps, radios and TV sets, etc.

Because if not, the ear would perceive MOST of the change during the first few degrees of rotation of the control; rather than a nice even steady change as the control was turned from one end to the other such as in a Volume pedal. But this is just the opposite from what we want from a Boowah (tone pot) pedal.

carl<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by C Dixon on 27 January 2003 at 12:19 PM.]</p></FONT>

Now that I have had the Fender V/T pedal for several weeks, I would like to bring you on board with a "freebee" I never counted on. And I love it.

So, what is it?

Ok, the first Volume pedal I ever owned was a DeArmond. I bought it new in 1947 I believe it was. I used it up to I sold my Fender 400 and bought an Emmons' P/P in 69. Since the Emmons' came with a Volume pedal at the time, no need to keep the DeArmond. So I let it got with the Fender 400 sale.

All these years, I kept thinking that both these pedals were designed incorrectly from an erginomic standpoint. At least in my case. I have always felt I was having to arch my foot to far back (when pedal is off). I deduced that the pedal should start out in the off position with the angle a little lower than what the DeArmond and Emmons' pedals were.

Well, I absolutely am thrilled with this Fender Volume pedal. Not only is the angle lower when it is off, but it even goes PAST flat (more downward) when it is at its maximum travel to provide maximum volume.

This thrills me. I did not notice it at first. This is because I have been concentrating on using the tone feature to get that "boowah" sound. And was not really concerened with the volume aspect. But the last two days I am giving the "boowah" thingy a rest since I am have some frustrations with the timing of the boowah. Not sure I will ever get it right.

And that is when I noticed what a pleasure the Volume aspect is. As stated earlier,

"I love it".

And the blessings continue to flow. Praise HIS holy name,

carl

I am surprised that there is a common knowledge using the "effects loop" for a volume pedal amongst steel players. MOST of the rockers are clueless as to this loops useage. I know keyboard players in their 40's who are clueless about MIDI since it's development in 1982!

I'm going to try it on my mixing board in the "Inset" point. Many mixers have this for every channel.

Is the idea behind this that the preamp always gets a full signal (for tone), thereby only the power portion of the amp is affected? It makes sense for an experiment. I'm assuming that there has been success doing this.

Paul