The Steel Guitar Forum

I played a D-10 MSA SS for 20 Years and never got into the C6th. Then after many more steels i got this Excel Superb U-12 with 9+9 and after close to a year i have never messed with the 6th part. so after 3 years of playing a 12 string i'm thinking when i get my next steel to get an extended E9th. I think after i'v got used to 12 strings i'll stay that way. And the single body seems so easy to get around on. It seems like a lot of people kinda lays their arms on the D-10 and the loafers with pad. Dont ya honestly think this slows ya down dragging your fore arm on the rear deck ??,
It seems like if i'm not mistaken that Jeff Newman said in a video that he thought it was or would slow ya down. We dont want this to be a debate just honest opinions. I will say watching some people play it looks like people do get awful comfortable back there. Pro's and Con's bring e'm on. Thanks so much in advance!!

Gary Steele<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Gary Steele on 27 January 2003 at 08:08 PM.]</p></FONT>

I'm with you Gary....I can't see the S10s on a dble frame. I can't see having a D10 if you don't know the C6th! (Shame on you guys for not learning this great swing tuning when
it's right there under your nose. Why carry it around? Do you really need an arm rest?) Of course I'm so old there wasn't a PSG w/E9th on it when I started so I had to copy Jerry Byrd after I heard him doing things I hadn't even dreamed a steel guitar could do!
You mean you can actually do someting other
than slide back 2 frets on a V7 chord on a song like Back In The Saddle Again?? Wow! Oops! I stopped to think about what I said after I said it.....When I started there wasn't even a PSG.....as we know it today! I almost as old as Al Marcus, & Al has told us about his first pedals! Mine didn't happen til after I heard Bud Isaacs.......although I had heard Alvino Rey's fine pedal steel work in the big band field before that!<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 27 January 2003 at 04:27 PM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 27 January 2003 at 04:29 PM.]</p></FONT>

If a person is determined to stay with strictly the E9th based tuning and they like the idea of a 12 string, by all means go to the Extended E9th tuning. Here are the reasons why:

1. The D on the 9th string is part and parcel of this tuning. So you do NOT have to engage a knee lever to have it at your beck and call.

2. Lowering this string to a C# AND having the lower G# and E notes at your disposal, adds great bass voicing to the E9th tuning.

3. The low E on the 12th string is one fine note to have in soooo many instances. For an example of a terrific use of this string, get Tom Brumley's "Bud's Bounce" and pay close attention to the bridge as he starts several frets low and comes up to the fret after picking this Bass "E" note. Simply great embelishment to this song. Incidently Tom has had an 11 string E9th neck on all his guitars as long as I have known him.

4. NO transition "learning" needed when going from a D-10 (E9th) PSG to an extended E9th tuning. You feel instantly right at home.

5. And by adding several more pedal changes (normally used for B6th changes) designed aroung the E9th base tuning, you have a wide array of voicings possibilities; not possible on a universal tuning.

There are others I am sure. But the above is certainly enough. I do have to agree with Doug on this 100%. It is sad; an almost makes me cry when I see how much one is missing by not knowing the "C6th" changes.

But I am NOT the one doing it. You are. And regardless of my feelings it is you that needs to be satisfied.

So if you simply play ONLY E9th stuff and are completely content with that; then go with Extended E9th.

God bless you in whatever you do,

carl

Thanks Carl and Doug. Carl, Are you saying if you played an Extended E9th you would have several pedals? Carl i'v probably been in a rut as much as anybody. I never took lessons and all i'v done is just played along with tracks and records and for my first several years i played with bands in local clubs. I'm probably very lucky to do as good as i do. I plan on before long going to spend a few day with a good teacher that can help me to get on the right track. I still want to get out of my rut and improve. I would like to go to a good teacher to get some good instruction and then go back later for more after i work on my bad habits. I'm trying to decide who would be the best to capture what i need most at the time. I know there are several good ones. If anyone wants to reccommend anyone or you can email me direct if you dont want to say on this post for any reason. I'm excited to hear from Al Marcus, Ricky Davis and many others. It makes no difference who. I respect all steel player.
Thanks in advance.

Gary Steele

I've been playing an extended E9th since 1974. I love it. The voicings possible using the 11th (G#), 8th, and 5th are beautiful.
I also take the 12th E down to a C# when I raise my two other E's to F. A great change.
I lower my 4 & 8 on my LKR, and I have a knee RKR (inside) that raises the 9th D to an Eb-- so I can strum across in the "B6th" and not a dissonant note there.
Happy to answer any questions.

JW

Carl,
My sentiments exactly,I have an S12 E9th 5+5 with the standard A,B,C pedals,the knees are standard with the exeption of raising 1st F# and 7th F#/G,sugestion for floors 4 and 5,they are just taking up space now.
Strings 11/12 are G# and E,but are not welded there(I can change them)
I played a D12 back in the 70s but gave it up for finacial reasons about 1980.
The tuning I had on it was E9th without the D on the 9th.I raised the 7th F# to G and from there back was tuned the same as the bo-wa pedal on the C6th,crazy but I learned on that tuning,and made good part time $$ with it.
I got back to playing a couple years ago and with the help of a great friend,I now have a beautifull red S12 and am trying to relearn it.
Thanks for any suggestions....

Bill

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Bill Ford

Winnie,and Bill thank you guys also. Man what a great response from the finest Gentlemen in the business. I like Winnie's E lowers on LKR and the inside RKR pulling the D to Eb i think i like that. Hey guys i kinda like the Franklin pedal on my first pedal called the O pedal. I like to end certain tunes also using it. Also i have two Knee presses on my left knee. One lowers my B's to Bb and the left one raises my 4th string E to F#. My friend Jerry Miller here in Columbus Ohio has done this for years and so does Bill Stafford. And if you use them together that is a nice change believe it or not. So Carl other than my Franklin pedal and my A,B,C pedal how many others would you have and plese Email me or better yet post it here so everyone can see it. NO SECRECTS LOL. Carl after playing a new Millennium the other day for 9 hours i'm wanting one forsure. And i want to get a good head start on my setup. I am only playing Gospel music and i really think the Extended E9th is enough. I dont seem to catch on to so of this stuff like you PRO's ha ha I hope i'm not missing something simple and cheating myself. I love to here the B and C6th stuff. OK ladies and Gents let e'm fly.
HEY AL, Where are you???

Gary Steele

Hi Gary, you are already getting some good advice from Winnie, Carl and the others.

I must agree that I like Extended E9 and all the changes you put on it.

But You know me, I like big band chords too, so I lower my middle G# to G , raise the middle F# to G and raise my High G# to A and my 11th string G# to A, for my Eminor and A9.

Then I lower my B's to Bb and raise my low E to F# and those are just like your two C6 pedals 5 and 6.

Then I tune open a C# between the 4th string E and 5th string B. This opens up my E6 stuff.

Then by adding equivelent Pedal 7 on C6, I pull the 4th string E to F# and the 5th String C# to D#. You'd be surprised what that does.

I also use the same as Winnie, E' to F's and 12 string E to C# for the boowah besides the regular change, I also use this for the Dominant7th two frets below the Tonic.

The extended E9 has a lot of possibilities, with a few extra changes and a little tweaking. You could get by with 5 or 6 pedals and 5 knees and do just fine.
Still be very familiar with the E9 tuning.

I notice Bobby Lee uses 5 pedals and 5 knees on his extended E9. So Gary, you won't need 9 pedals and 9 knee levers, if you go Extended E9 route...al .

Yes indeed Gary,

If I were to play an Extented E9th tuning, I would add the following pedal changes to it:

1. Lower All the G#'s to a G. I would make this pedal one and shift all the others over one pedal each.

2. PF pedal on pedal 5. (lowers 5, 6 and 10 a whole tone each)

3. Partial pedal 5 changes (FROM U-12/B6) on pedal 6. plus LOWER the 1st string to an F with it. NO way could I live without this change on ANY tuning.

I see no need for more than 6 pedals on extended E9th.

I would have 2 LKL's. The knee levers would be as follows:

LKL raise the E's to F

LKL2 raises the F#'s to G# and raises the D# to an E. I would adjust this so that when the D# just starts to move it would act as a half-stop on the two F#'s becoming a G. If necessary I would add a spring on the 2nd string to aid in "feeling" this half stop.

LKV lowers the B's to Bb

LKR Lowers the middle and bottom G#'s to an F# AND splits with the B pedal. Note: tune the split so it makes a pretty A7th; unlike pedal 1 which is tuned for that pretty Eminor.

RKL lowers the E's to Eb

RKR lowers 2nd string to a C# (with half stop) and lowers the 9th string to a C#. Use the 9th string nylon tuner to set the half stop on the 2nd string. Increase the tension on the 9th string return spring for the half stop "feel".

Then tune the C# split screw on the 9th string to bring the C# back up to perfect tune.

Note the above is IF, I were to play extended E9th. And I am very sincere and serious. But I do not play extended E9th, because I would never give up the B6 standard changes.

But like I said earlier, for those of you who never played C6; nor the bottom neck on your D-10's, nor the B6 part of a universal, the extended E9th is the way to go IMO.

hope this helps,

carl

I don't have a pad on the back of my SD-12 - I have a "shelf". I use it to hold my tuner, alternate pickups, song list, etc.

Sitting at a double frame is more comfortable to me than most single frame guitars. I suggest you try it before dismissing it.

On Extended E9th, I really like lowering the low E to D on the so-called "C" pedal. It's great to have a tight, open D power chord when you're playing rock music.

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<small><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic, Line6 Variax (coming soon)

I made a mistake in my suggested tunings "if I was going extended E9th". I showed LKR and RKL reversed from what my brain was thinking. In other words it should have read as follows:

LKR lowers the E's

RKR lowers the middle and bottom G#'s to F#

The reason for this is:

I use the lowering of the 6th and 11th strings WITH LKL for a pretty 9th chord on strings 4, 5 and 6 (utilizing the split plus A pedal). Also the octave 9th chord doing this on strings 8, 10 and 11. This would be impossible with the setup as shown in my earlier post.

In addition there is a V9 to V7 transition that works very well having the raising THEN, lowering of the E knee levers on the same knee; While lowering the G#'s to G (split plus A pedal) on the opposite knee. Again impossible with my other setup. I understand the rationale for raising and lowering of the E's on different knees, but the above takes a priority in my case since I use it so much.

Finally, having LKL2 follow RKR (half-stop); picking string 2, 3 and 5, gives a very pretty inversion of a V7 to I chord. I hear PF do this a lot. This would NOT be possible if both these knee lever changes were engaged by the same knee.

To repeat;

LKL2 raises the F#'s a whole tone and raises the D# a half a tone

carl<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by C Dixon on 28 January 2003 at 09:07 AM.]</p></FONT>

Hey Gary,
After playing a fairly standard version of the E9/B6 Universal for over twenty years I went to what might be called and extended E9 Universal or my "Mooney" universal as I call it. I use a single wide as I play electric guitar, acoustic guitar, and mandolin on most of my gigs as well as steel and I don't have to back away from my guitar for the other instruments as there's plenty of room (although if my belly keeps getting bigger there won't be). What I do a little different is that I tune my 9th string to C# as well as my 2nd string to C#. My LKR pulls them both to D and my LKL raises the 2nd string C# to D# and lowers the 10th string B to Bb. My LKV lowers my 5th string B to Bb also. My RKL raises the 4th & 8th strings to F and my RKR lowers them to Eb (D#). When the E's are lowered it's like having a C6th with a D in the middle register like some C6th players are doing now. What you could do if you use the 9th string D is lower it to C# along with the E's. This gives you the first 3 major scale notes starting on string 10, for the 4th scale note you just release your E lower on string 8 and the your 5th is the 7th string and on.
What I do with the floor pedals on my guitar is as follows:
Pedal 1...Lowers string 3 G# to G (a Mooney Change) and raises the 7th string F# to G# (a Tom Brumley change)
Pedal 2...Normally called the A pedal but I only raise string 5, B to C# here.
Pedal 3...Raises strings 3 & 6 G#'s to A.
Pedal 4...My Mooney Pedal, raises the 4th string E to F# and the 11th string G# to A.
Pedal 5...Some call it the "Thompson Pedal" raises the 5th string B to C# and the 6th string G# to A# (Bb)
Pedal 6...Lowers the 7th string F# to F and also raises the 12th string E to F.
Pedal 7...Lowers the 9th string C# to C, the 10th string B to A# (Bb), and the 12 string E to Eb (D#). Basically my open tuning low to high is:
E G# B C# E F# G# B E G# C# F#

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

I just wished i understood all this like a lot of you guys do. I'll probably get me a new Extended E9th MSA Millennium before to long. I' ll take all this and work on it to give me plenty then i'll have to get someone later to show me how to understand it better. My e9th on my Excel has 6 knees and 4 pedals on the E9th. The Franklin on the very first pedal. And the LKV next to the vertical lowering the B to Bb. So some of these things you guys are saying sound great. I would like to have this setup i have now plus a few other neat pulls. Someone said something about the Franklin on i think the 5th pedal. Keep in mind i'm not making a living at this and i dont understand music like many of you guys so give me some options. To be honest i think the reason i dont get into a 6th tuning is i dont really want to take time to learn the fret board all over for a B6th or C6th.
Guess im Chicken, laz or dont see a need, ETC. I'm sure many of you will have some answers.
Thanks, To All. I just hope i like my next setup. Who's gonna loan me some money to get all these extra pedals and knees on my new Millennium???? Ha Ha

No indeed, a double body doesn't slow down anybody's playing. That's what probably 95% of the pro's use!