The Steel Guitar Forum

Would anyone happen to know David Hartley's exact tuning and copedant?

Thanks

Dwight

Here ya go

Anybody know how he tunes his guitar? I've had teachers, read Newman, and have a Peterson stomp. I've been playing 24 years, and still haven't found a temperament I can stand. To my ears, Mr. Hartley is the most in-tune player ever. When listening to some steel radio show with random content, and a Hartley song gets played, I can identify him in about 5 notes even if I've never heard the song before, and that is just weird.

Hartley's copedent is the most standard of standards in the modern steel world. His secret of getting the licks he does comes from great technical chops and a precise and melodic sense of note choice.

The fact that he's always in tune is that he's trained his ears and body to hit the notes correctly. It's aural perception and muscle/visual memory.

Glenn, I second what Herb said. With knobs on.
Buddy tuned straight ET, I think I read somewhere that David uses one of the common temperaments (it doesn't matter which: you or I wouldn't sound like him even on his guitar), and you can find pros using nearly any standard.
Hartley sounds in tune because he PLAYS in tune. His ears guide his hands.

You guys are just taking my excuses away....

Glenn Demichele wrote:You guys are just taking my excuses away....

Didn't mean to rain on your parade, man... you need to go out and buy more gear!

Gear hasn't worked either - time to try something else. I wonder what kind of cologne he wears...

What Herb said!

David uses a Peterson Strobe tuner, or was when last we met. However, he can tune the steel almost to exact pitch by ear alone!
The copedent he has is about the best I've tried, and I've got something similar on mine now, seeing as I've used a few of his Tabs it made sense! And I love it!

Thanks guys for all your comments. I was trying to find tunings which work better with my particular brain. I can play single notes in tune regardless of my tempering. With chords however, I notice that my brain seems to focus in and tune the instrument to the band using only one note in a (three or four note) chord. If for example I use the Newman tuning: when I play certain inversions of a chord, my brain might tune that chord to the band using the sweetened third and the roots will be sharp w.r.t. the band, but I don't hear it right away because I'm focused on only one note. Another irritating thing with Newman for me, I really notice that I have to fret the AF inversion closer to the bridge. If I use ET, the bar is always over the frets but everything sounds un-mellow.
I think I found the answer though: this meantone approach really worked for me, and I even sound in tune on playback at all the chord positions.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... one+tuning

Glenn, you may try what I use by just simply getting the beats out. I tune E's to 440 with pedals down and then tune to the E's getting all beats out except the 7th string. It I just find something between to where it sounds good. Tune you 9th string to 6th string with pedals down. I think I sound in tune most of the time. I've tried the Newman and also the Peterson Strobe and the Peterson is closest to sounding in tune to my ears but still needs to be tweaked a little . David Hartley is always right on the money. I don't think it's his tuning as much as it is his ears and his eye to hand control.

You know what gets to be really exciting? At some point, most steel players get kind of psycho about the whole "tuning thing," and set out with the goal of playing really, really, really "in tune." Practicing single notes against drones, practicing pairs of intervals so the intervals are really perfect against each other. And, I don't think it takes any particularly-high level of skill beyond persistence to train your ear well past the point where the adjustments made for the equal-tempered tuning needed to keep all 12 keys an equal amount out-of-tune start sounding... out-of-tune.... First you start realizing that you're out-of-tune, then you notice that guitar players are out-of-tune, then you notice that Duane Allman and Miles Davis are out-of-tune, and every soul singer, every piano is out-of-tune then everybody who plays with a piano player has to play out-of-tune in the way that matches the keyboard's out-of-tuneness... Just back AWAY from the grizzly bear, do NOT turn and RUN, just back AWAY from the bear, sir...

The whole tuning debate is a bit of a wild animal. When I started playing (on my own) I tuned in natural intervals because they gave me that amazing sonority that drew me to the PSG in the first place. I was a bit concerned by warnings on the forum that this would not work with even-tempered instruments such as keyboards and (to a varying extent) guitars. I need not have worried. When I was eventually invited to join a band I carried right on, making sure that the notes the audience is conscious of (mostly the top line) were in tune and letting the others take care of each other. I knew it would work because I also play trombone. (A trombone section can’t play in even temperament – the only in-tune state it can detect is natural intervals.) The band, which consisted of two singers (one of them in tune) a guitarist who used a tuner but didn’t know what it was set to and liked to use a cheap capo on his 12-string, an electronic piano and an extremely tasteful and accurate drummer, all said it sounded good and so have audience members since.

Looking at it scientifically, the deviations from natural tuning introduced by well-meaning programmable tuners are going to be easily wiped out by small variations in bar placement, angle and pressure. But it’s a what-works-for-you situation. Your tuning of choice may not actually have a theoretical basis but may be just a reflection of the way your left hand works.

I get my cans of worms in bulk from Costco.

You won't get David's tuning without BSF and BSW wrenches. It's a fact...

Has anyone noticed David's coped has no Bb? That's not really standard. He has the G# to F# on the vertical, in addition to a Franklin pedal. And the 1st string G and G# on separate levers.
I like the look of that.
John

As a copier of David's Copedent, I think it's quite versatile setup.

Do ever miss having a B to Bb lower?
John

John, you probably know you get the same notes( flat5) on str 34568+10 one fret below with B pedal and F lever!

I'm asking because I find my B to Bb lower to be my least used modifier. I use it to go from root to a 2 dominant, or a 4 to a 5 dominant. I know it must have many more uses, but if David Hartley doesn't have it, with all his abilities, maybe I could use the lever for something else. It is a vertical of the standard Emmons setup, certainly for reasons more than playing a 2 dominant chord.

John, I see what you are saying, you lower your bar one fret and raise the root and 3rd back up, and you have your 5th flatted and the other chord tones natural.

I don't mean to hijack the thread from David's intonation. I'd still like to hear what tuning system he uses, and I don't think we got a clear answer on that. But I have to say I think we all adjust our playing to a particular guitar and tuning, and play by ear brain and hands. David is one of those pitched gifted players who would be in tune regardless.

John

Hey John...when we did the Capitol Records sessions, you probably remember that there were a few minor walkdown lines that appeared in some of the pieces (sometimes referred to as "line cliche"...minor, min(maj7), min7, min6). On a few of them, I used the B to Bb lever when I wanted a fat chord descending or arpeggios.

Minor chord with the A pedal (3 frets up from the pedals up major chord). A pedal down, A pedal down with Bb lever, pedals up lever off, Bb lever.

There are certainly other ways of playing the same thing, but this was a pretty easy method.

Hi Marty...you are another one of those pitch-gifted players!
That's a great tip on the use of the Bb lever to play minor chords with descending bass. I had not found that one yet. Not as frequent in traditional country but a very common progression in pop and jazz. As important as the 2 dominant move.
My Funny Valentine, Stairway to Heaven, lookout...

John, here's a couple videos I did of that lever.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n9aEyTaD3YA
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn1IY1E-uKU
But those uses are near the top. I use it more than the F lever.

This minor chord with descending bass works on an all pull guitar. On a PP, the raise over rides the lower, so the A# lower does not work with your A pedal engaged.
John