The Steel Guitar Forum

I don't play a Universal because they have too many pedals for me. I've learned through experience that 5p+5k is my limit. Any more than that, and I start hitting the wrong pedal or lever.

Other non-Universalists: Why aren't you playing a Universal tuning?

I think if I was just starting out now, I would seriously consider the Universal for the convenience of having everything on one neck. But I prefer having 2 necks because there's a mindset that goes with the E9 and a different mindset for the C6 and by switching between the two necks, it's also like switching mindsets and it seems to make more of a clarity.

I can do C6 stuff on the E9, I can do a little E9 on the C6 and I like the idea that they are separate entities.

I don't play universal because I found that I don't need those low notes. Extended E9 goes plenty low, especially since you can yank that low E down to C or B.

I gave E9/B6 a try for 3 yrs and just recently went back to my D-10 Emmons and got a new SD-10 Fessenden. I could never get use to the different grips used to play on the lower strings of the E9/B6 and was in effect playing "8" string E9th because of it.
I know that the "D" stg note is there on the E9/B6 tuning with the use of a KL, but the throw on that KL was soooo long that I shyed away from using it. With in an hour of getting my Emmons back from having Mike Cass do a complete restoration job, I was once again playing the whole E9th tuning and felt "at home" again for the first time in 3 yrs. I liked having those lower notes from a musical point of view, but just could not re-train my brain to use them. I would like to get another 12 stg guitar, but would go with Extended E9th for sure.
JE:-)>

I like the D string on E9 and I also like to fool around on the C6 without pedals, and holding down the E notes on a U-12 is a pain.

I don't play a U-12 (standard setup), because to my way of thinking, it is still two necks. That is why my U-12 "ain't" standard. Cause ifun it was, this dude would not play it. I tried on U-12 copedents for close to 40 yrs, and I have NEVER seen one I would be happy with.

I agree with the 5 pedal bit. I have no problem with 8 knee levers in ONLY two clusters, ie, left leg has 5 (two ups) Right leg has 3 (2 RKR's).

The latter warped my mind for a long time. As did LKL2 (years ago). Now it is just like any other knee lever. And I love this U-12 more than I could ever tell you.

carl

I tried both a 12 and a 13 string Universal over the past couple of years. Here's some of what I found:

1) It was tough to retrain my brain to play one fret sharper than what I had been playing on C6 for 30 years.

2) The many standard C6 tunes with open strings would have to be played in weird keys, so I didn't play them.

3) My knee got tired when holding the knee lever to play a 6th tune.

4) While holding the knee lever I couldn't use other levers on the same knee.

5) I had to eliminate some knee levers I was used to on my double neck as there's not enough space for them all without making a second set of left knees. Having to move my knee to another set negates any advantage of the single tuning IMHO.

6) I missed the D string on E9 and when I lowered it to C# for the middle D on C6, it got in the way.

I have a new D-12 on order.

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Jim Smith jimsmith94@attbi.com
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden D-12 (coming soon)=-
Stereo Steel rig w/Boss GX-700
IVL SteelRider w/JV-880

Charles-I'll have to agree with you about the mindset with 2 necks. It makes it a lot easier, more automatic. However....

As Bobby says, 5 and 5 is plenty for the 12 string. Check Bud Carters tuning for one.

I personally have played Non-Universal 12 string most of the time. I use a 5 pedals and 5 knee levers Non-Universal tuning. E6 with standard C6 pedals 5-6-7 , only I put P7 on the RLK. My E9 A and B pedals on I put on 1 & 2 peadals, just like E9.

I put the E to F on LLK same as Bobby, and lower the E 12 string to C# , gives me the Boowah pedal too. That is a great useful pedal used for both and the bass runs are great.

I put the E to Eb on the LRK and use it for E9 and also for major7ths when I want that top E to Eb , I don't pick the other Eb when playing the 6th side. It works good there physically as you are pushing right and goes well with P 5 & 6 or both together.

My vertical gives me the high C# to D# (or Eb) I use that in place of the usual D# 2nd string on the usual E9. Very handy there.

I lower my fifth(B) a whole tone to A on a knee and that gives me A major7th and A7 with Pedal 6

I lower my Third(G#) a whole tone to F# which gives me the 9th to F#7th with my Pedal 5 and the A major7th to Amajor6th.
I also use that knee for E9 side.

For more E9th playing I use the Following basic open tuning. Start with 1st string. Remember I get the 2nd string D# on a knee lever.
F#-G#-E-C#-B-G#-F#-E-C#-B-G#-E==I pull both C#'s up to D on a Knee lever.
as can be seen the bar positions are the same for E9 and E6.

For playing mostly E6 stuff, which I do- Here is the following basic open tuning that I use.
You can do the same thing with C6 , if you wish.

F#-D#-G#-E-C#-B-G#-E-C#-A-E-A. This is the one I favor.
Bobby, Good post........al

I tried the U12 and even U14 thing years ago- for me the killer was simply the number of strings. I just kept loosing track of what string was what.

10 is manageable
12 is harder
14 is just crazy

Also, many of the other reasons stated above- open B instead of C, knee getting tired holding the dang lever, and I was just learning C6, and found I constantly had to tweak educational tab in both X and Y in my head.

I think that starting from scratch it could be a great thing.

All I know is that a friend had a great deal on a used Lashley LeGrand D10- I got it, and suddenly my playing improved drastically. I sold my sierra s14 and sierra s12 (thanks b0b!) and never looked back.

Well, sorta. A few years back, I bought a Williams D-11 from Carco Clave. I was thinking I'd have both D AND high G on the c6 neck...but who am I fooling? Do I really want to retrain my brain for 11 strings??? I'm gonna set it up for D10.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Lynn Kasdorf on 15 January 2003 at 12:23 PM.]</p></FONT>

The reason I stopped playing one was because I like that ninth string D and on the universial had to move a level to get it. dumb reason I know but its mine lol

To add something to this thread which emerges often.

And that is the holding of the E to Eb lever engaged. I agree 100%. IF, that knee lever is on the right knee. No way could I ever get used to that. That is one of the major reasons I refused to go that route, albeit NOT the only reason.

Here is what I rationlized before I ever ordered one. Since the higher number pedals ALWAYS require the E to Eb, WHY not force this easily?

What do you mean, carl?

Ok, IF that lever is LKR*, it is automatically engaged when the foot goes to the right. And the further it goes the more it forces it. IF, we let it.

My theory proved to be true in my case. Let me tell you the chain of events. Because we never had to "hold" the E lever in on D-10's, I fought it for the first few months after I got my U-12. And since the guitar comes with a "LOK" lever, I found my self using it a lot.

As time went on, I started noticing something. I was using the LOK lever less and less. 'Til now, I rarely EVER use it. But what is even better; I am no longer even aware that I am having to engage the E lever when playing the "C6" pedals.

Apparently my brain has gotten programmed like it is whilst using the "shift" key on a typewriter; to capitilize letters. In a word, it is as natural to me now, that I am not even aware when I engage this lever; or disengage it. It just happens. And I dearly love it. Again this would NOT be the case if it was on the right knee.

As to using other knee levers with it, that makes good sense. The following knee levers can be used with my LKR:

1. LKV

2. RKL

2. RKR

4. RKR2

And I use these levers with LKR (lowering the E's) ALL the time.

As to the problem of playing a lot of tunes in odd keys (using open pull offs, etc) this is a very good argument against it. The converse of this is "steelin the blues" which has always been played in C# or as JB says Db! So back-up musicians love the tune now!

The only tune that fights me is "Remington Ride" which of course was written in D for the C6 tuning. I am thinking seriously about installing an adjustable (in and out) capo for this. This would also make everyting the same as C6, (IF it was necessary on other tunes).

Again, 5 pedals is all one needs to get MOST of what they can have on a D-10. The positive side is this. having two extra strings on BOTH necks (in essence) plus having the "other one's" voicings just makes it toooooo desirable for me not to love the heck out of the U-12.

Finally, I just do not have a problem in NOT having the D on the 9th string open tuning. I feel about this as I do ANY other note on a given string. To me the very idea of a PSG negates this as a problem in my brain. IE, if I have the change, simply use it when its called for. In other words, ANY note on any pedal or knee lever could be said to be better if it were in the open string setup. But who wants to go back to an Eddie Alkire tuning?

But to each his own,

carl

* It is agreed the above will NOT work on the Jimmy Day setup for obvious reasons.

I started on a single 10 E9 and then went with the E9/B6 U12 for about 5 years. I moved on to a D10 and never looked back.

I like a D10 better because of:

1. Tone
2. Intonation. I tune beats out for the most part so there is less compromise.

3. There are more harmonic and tonal options. If I want to change something on one neck it doesn't screw up the other.

4. It is more simple at least for my brain. Both tunings just lay there all nice and orderly without the need to interpose and extra level of complexity to get at what I'm hearing in my head.

A more standard set up just works out better in my case. Which is interesting because I don't play standard steel music for the most part. Some guys are really great with a U12. I am not into it personally.

Bob

Bill Stafford use his lock a bunch. He is quick to engauge it to. He can shift it faster than you can shift a 4 speed car, Ha Ha Great player too as you all well know. He can play that good slow Country stuff to, Dont think for a minute he cant. Listen to the Christmas CD he done in Nashville a while back. He is Mr. SMooth.

When I first joined this forum my first question was U12 vs. D10... what a firestorm followed.

I bought a U12. I liked it for many reasons, but when I bought my next guitar, it was a Mullen D10.

As a novice of 2 yrs now, I can say that the two necks are an advantage as the voicings, keys and playing approach are much more distinct compared with the U12. Even tho I had a lock for mine, and I DID use it, I eventually went to an E9 extended tuning with a D on the 9th string instead of a B. I just like having the "7th" tone there.

My work on C6 is progressing rapidly, due mainly to the separation of necks and clarity of tunings and definition of approaches.

my 2 cents.

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Bill Fulbright
Mullen D-10 8x7; Gibson ES-165; Peavey Vegas 400;
ICQ# 2251620 My Music Site

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bill Fulbright on 16 January 2003 at 08:35 AM.]</p></FONT>

D-10's cooler looking.

Plus, I like changing strings so much that I was left feeling vaguely unsatisfied with only 12 strings to change.

When I had an S-12 I started out with extended E9 and got along quite well. At some point, however, I got an urge to learn some "6th" stuff and couldn´t afford another guitar so I decided to try Universal. I found out I didn´t like it, and here´s why:
Keeping the E to Eb lever engaged every time I wanted to play "B6" felt very uncomfortable. My right leg would get numb after a while. I agree with Carl that it may solve some problems to put it on LKR, but the point for me is, I don´t like that change on the left side. I prefer having BOTH my E string changes on the right knee. It just feels better to me.
I had no previous C6 experience and had just started to learn the tuning. So every time I used C6 tab, I had to make mental adjustments, the string numbering was different, I had to skip strings 2 and 3, play everything one fret higher and so on. When I got my D-10, learning from tab became a breeze.
I like to play along with older C6 recordings that utilize a lot of open strings. Not possible if the guitar is tuned to B6.
Last but not least, I terribly missed the 9th string D on E9. Yes I know, you can get the D on a U-12 by pushing a lever or pedal, but I use it quite a lot in my playing so that felt just too awkward. I also like to play rapid sequences on strings 9,8,7,6 that are physically impossible if you don´t have a 9th string "D".
So, I have to say that for me U-12 didn´t work. Right now I play D-10, but if I ever get another 12-string, I´ll put a personalized extended E9 on it again, I could do a lot with that.

Regards, Joe H.

Great thread! My reason is simple. Too many strings. The reason I play E9th only is that I never need to play C6th. I can get enough sixth sounds on E9th for my job.

I suppose I like a double neck instrument for a couple of reasons. One is related to b0b's reason. I think that given the current state of the technology (and I play the best that I have seen) the fewer changes on an instrument the better. I suppose that I might be able to think up a copedant which could get everything I have, but it wouldn't work as well as what I have. The other is that with the new Sacred Steel/E9th hybrid tuning that I have been playing (thanks to b0b) I love having a dense tuning (my C6th with D's everywhere) and a tuning I can play rhythm on. I doubt whether I could get that from a universal.

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www.tyack.com

When I had a U-12, the E lowers where on LKR and my leg still got tired. And I would unconsciously lighten up the pressure until I played one of the two strings. Then my ears would remind me to fully shift the lever.

I started 32 years ago on a S-12, Bb6th, for me it's the best....

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[url=http://david_wright1.tripod.com/]My Web Page[/url]
Sierra Guitars

Sierra S-12 9&7
Peavey-2000-PX-300

I play E9 pedal steel with 3 pedals and 4 knee levers and I have been lucky so far and have been able to get all of my C6 voices that I have needed on the E9 guitar. You have to do some searching and it takes some 4 notes grips, but they are there if you look for them.

Plus, who wants a guitar that is bigger and heavier? Not me!

Mark


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Sho~Bud Pro I, Fender D-8 (C6&E13) http://www.darkmagneto.com

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Mark Ardito on 17 January 2003 at 07:06 AM.]</p></FONT>

I DO play a universal, but in addition to my 2 S-12s. I have a D 12 with a dedicated C6 neck. I find it easier to learn on a C6 neck, and then apply what I've learned to my B6, then to learn on the B6 itself.

I still like , for me, E6 tuning with E9 pulls on it.
The top 4 strings are just like E9. F#-D#-G#-E-C#-B-G#-F#-E-C#-B-E
I pull the C#'s up to D on a knee lever, otherwise the only difference from E9 Extended is putting the C# between the 4th and 5th string. That's it!

You can work around that and even if you hit it, it wont hurt anything. With the A pedal you get a duplicate sound. Kinda nice effect.

However it is most important to play the C6 stuff.
The E to F Knee for E9 is also used as the Boowah P8 on C6 by adding the pull 12 string E to C#, as Bobby Lee does.

I also use the E to Eb knee for my C to B on C6. It works, I just don't pick the 9th string E. Instead I pick the 10th string C#. Using 4 picks.

I have the usual C6th pulls 5-6-7, only E6 instead. Same bar postions as E9. Here is a good 5 pedal setup.

1. B to C#'s(A Pedal0
2. G# to A'S(B Pedal)
3. B to Bb, B to Bb, and E to F#(C6 5th pedal)Pedal 3.
4. G# to A, G# to G ,F# to G, two G's together.and 11th string B to A.(C6 6th pedal)Pedal 4
5. E to F#, C# to D#, Emaj7(C6th 7th pedal)
Pedal 5
I call this my "Lean and Mean REAL 12 string Universal tuning.

To complete the tuning, I use a couple of more Pedals. Raise the 12 string E to F# and lower the 11th string B to A, that gives the pop, jazz ,subdominant bottom when you want it.Amaj7th.
I use two knees to get suspendid passing tones. On is 6th string B down a whole tone to A.
the other is 7th string G# down a whole tone to F#.
I use the B to A knee to go with my pedal 4 makes it a nice moving 9th to A7th chord.
I also use it alone for Amaj7.
I use the G# to F# as used on E9, also makes a moving 9th to F#7 chord. I also use both together to get a full Amaj 6th chord.

That's my 2 cents for today. FWIW...al

I agree with you b0b. . . .
4 or 5 knee levers is enough for me. Anymore and i get confused. Now I have 2 D-10's with 8 pedals on each. On the C neck, I can see where it's easy for someone like myself to mash the wrong pedal, unless I first look at my feet & the pedal board before I start playing the break.

Nick. . . .now proudly playing through a Fender Twin Reverb

The reason I'm not playing a U12 is that I'm on my computer right now. If I were playing, it'd be my MSA U12.

Really, I don't have a good solid reason why I got the U12. It was my first and only guitar (three years, now) and the universal idea seemed like a good one. I have not played a D10 since I borrowed one in 1999, before I got the U12. That D10 was the very first steel I ever played, really. I knew virtually nothing about the PSG then so I couldn't tell whether D10 or U12 was better. I do like my ol' MSA, however!