The Steel Guitar Forum

Could someone please tell me what the term "cabinet Drop" means. I have been reading a few messages with the term being used and I have a idea as to what it is, but thought I would like to be sure.
Thanks
Harry Busby

It's a long and harried subject that has been discussed here many times. Basically it's the reason that for example on E9, when you step on your A&B pedals the 4th string (which isn't changed by the pedals) goes flat a little bit. The cabinet sags slightly causing strings to go flat.

I'd like to say it is caused by electronic tuners because no one noticed it until they became available.

Sorry, cabinets don't 'sag'. If that were true, your biggest problem with de-tuning would be on the rear neck where the pedals are pulling dead center on the body. That's not the case. Ron Lashley Sr. proved it's happening in the changer...that's fact, not speculative.

Jeff, I think that needs some explanation because if I pluck the 4th string on my E9 neck and press pedals 6 and 7 which aren't doing anything on the E9 neck, the 4th string goes flat.

so why the new emmons anti body deflex whoosy whatsy

So, you use pedals 6 & 7 alot when you play on E9th? What kind of guitar is it?
ebb, it's not new, and your uninformed question only slights the credibility of a dear friend and a brilliant man, who I, for one, miss immensely.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jeff Peterson on 20 December 2002 at 07:53 PM.]</p></FONT>

yikes! i'm ready for my lesson. i adore your playing most definite

What is cabinet raise? What is best, raise or drop? <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Reggie Duncan on 20 December 2002 at 08:21 PM.]</p></FONT>

Let's look at this a bit. So, say we agree there are a plethora of factors that affect the anomaly we refer to as 'cab drop'. Some guitars are worse than others. Some are audible...some are not. If you have a guitar that reads on a tuner but it does not bother your ear(tuning) when you play, who cares? Literally, every guitar I repair, set up, recondition, new or used, has to some degree some drop on various strings using various pedals....except the Lashley III. Now, quality control at Emmons is excellent...but, I'm sure there are more than a few variances in production from guitar to guitar. Why does every LLIII I set up or see have NO cab drop? The anti de-tuning device developed by Ron Sr. only affects the changer axle. Does this not give us a little clue as to what is going on? Ron said, 'I don't care what causes it, I fixed it'. So, if there are all the variables going on that everyone brings up, how could he do that with the rediculously simple and efffective 'fix' he invented? Ha! there's the rub.
The best thing you can do for your guitar is make sure every body, neck, changer, tuner/tuning head, cross bar support, etc. screw is tight. The whole thing needs to be solid. If your pickups are spring mounted, not plate, and they feel too loose you should have more spring tension to make them more integral to the body.
Learning from the more than hundreds of guitars I have worked on, drop shows no discrimination. Some very expensive and beautifully fit guitars I've seen have amazed me with as much as 10 cents drop on the E's with AB engaged. This is definitely hearable and I think..unacceptable. Then, I'll have to piece together an old Maverick with baling wire and chewing gum, and It'll show not more than a cent and a half. Go figure.
Again, I would really love to see any guitar, any make, not an Emmons LLIII, that you say has 'no' drop. Bring it on in, I'd love to see it. If you have one, it would be my first.
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jeff Peterson on 20 December 2002 at 08:38 PM.]</p></FONT>

Can you discuss cabinet raise, Jeff. Thanks.

Ya' know, the worst case of 'cab raise' I encountered on a repair/set up in the shop barely registered audibly, only 2-3 cents on the tuner...and then disappeared after a complete set up/tune up. On my guitars, it does not show up. I'll have to tie a string around my finger to remind me to check guitars that come in to check on this...but again, if it isn't audible when you tune or play, it shouldn't be a major concern. If you tune 'beatless' with alot of drop/raise you end up chasing your tail, and it can be really frustrating, 'cause the open strings change from 1 pedal to 2 pedals depressed. You end up 'coming close' with almost every change you have, and playing just off frets here and there to compensate, which can mess you up from guitar to guitar.

Does the Emmons LeGrande III "anti body deflex whoosy whatsy", as Ebb called it, cause any raise?

Cause raise? In a word, no. Simply, it stabilizes the changer axle. Like I said, 'raise' has never been an audible problem with me. Drop, however, when at that audible degree, is a real problem. From the variances from guitar to guitar of the same make, I believe Ron Sr. was right in believing that it is mostly changer axle/finger fit...no slop is tolerable, and the axle needs to be made from the hardest/most stable material possible. One or more braces on the changer does nothing.
Again, again, if anyone has a guitar that has a huge 'raise' problem...please bring it to Steel Guitar Nashville. I would appreciate the opportunity to check out this particular anomaly.

7th string raise with the E lower lever is more noticable than 4th string drop with pedals down on my Sierra Session.

Neither effect was audible when the guitar was a double neck. After I removed the back neck, the raise/drop effects could be heard.

Neither is bad enough to make the guitar sound "out of tune", though. All of my out-of-tune-ness comes from my left hand.

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<small><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

I took the counterforce off of my LeGrandeIII. Ironicaly the guitar hardly had any drop without it. I got spooked by the counterforce. I felt like it was destabilizing my tuning center. Prior to this guitar I had a LeGrande II that had alot of drop. All of the pushpulls I have owned hardly had any drop. Very solid instruments. Recently my good friend< the incredibly talented Wayne Dahl, left his Carter at my house while he went home for Christmas. Remarkbly the drop on this guitar is negligeble. On top of that the lowers all come back to pitch without any compensators. Could this be because of the 24" scale? It's a very impressive guitar.I'm still drawn to the tone of my Emmons but the Carter is a great feeling guitar. Personally I think a little drop is ok. As Weldon once said to me "Tune your guitar then learn how to play it in tune"
BB

Jeff speaks the Tremendous Truth....and what Ron said and has passed on is also the Truth.....as far as all my test are concerned......Jeff knows his stuff and I always listen closely when he speaks(on mechanical issues).
Bruce......I can think of so many issues and reasons for such a stable tuning the 24" scale provides.....it is quite a list....and I good list at that....and I never understood the 24 1/4" scale length on a pedal steel......for the bad tuning and historics and pivot points that this scale offers....but the longer scale does offer more ringing sustain....but other than that......Me no like
The simplicity of the fingers on a Push/pull pulling on that axle is much less tension....than the two piece all pull changer fingers....and that is my reason for less drop on the pushpull.
Jeff>question??
Are the Changer fingers a different design in the Lagrand III as oppose to the II???
Ricky<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 22 December 2002 at 02:22 AM.]</p></FONT>

I have found that a playing "wiz" who theorizes openly about tuning disfunction, is merely chasing around, looking for answers. It would take a team of machinists just a few hours to set up a framework, and install a huge foolproof cross-shaft to prove once and for all if tension is the culprit. I'll call it the "Houdini Mash" when a wimpy cluster of 10 strings are stretch tested by a solid 2" cross-shaft with matching finger pulls. Therefore, if the test proves that pedals A&B have not caused a 4th string drop, the answer is clear. I maintain that a heavy foot could easily cause a number of dissonant effects, by merely distorting the framework. A simplistic string raise design would eliminate the "bigfoot" problem by modifying the undue pressure exerted throughout the cabinet.

Bill H.

The changers are the same. The counterforce just does what it says...keeps the changer axle in one place. It doesn't need any testing, it works perfectly.
Thanks Ricky for the vote of confidence(mechanically speaking, of course).
Bruce, I agree in that all Push/Pulls I've had have had neglible drop...again, if you can't hear it, it shouldn't be a problem.

Even if you can hear cabinet drop, you can tune your pedals intelligently and play in tune. People get hung up on beats heard on open strings. Three beats per second is not dissonance, folks. It's not out of tune. And how much do you play open strings, anyway?

Do the math on the intervals, and you'll find that cabinet drop actually helps the E9th. I think that's why some experienced players find that the Emmons counterforce feels strange. For example, we want the F# strings to drop a bit in the A+B position, for a more harmonious 6th tone of the chord.

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<small><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 22 December 2002 at 11:05 AM.]</p></FONT>

I agree with Bobby that some drop is OK. Where the obvious problem exists is on the sixth string. With too much drop the string is undesirably flat with the b to c# raise both in the six minor and the four chord. On my push pulls I sometimes put an extra slight raise on the sixth string that works off my A pedal. It solves part of the problem. This crazy instrument we play will never be perfect. There is always going to be a compromise between mechanics and tone. Playing in tune with great tone has been a lifelong pursuit. I don't know many folks that believe that they've found total steel guitar nirvana.....there's always somethin!
BB

Most steels have some drop, but it's not really noticed without a meter. Most of the steels I have checked show more drop on floor pedals than they do on knee levers, leading me to believe most of the problem is cause by the "downforce" on the pedal rods. You can verify this by simply pressing harder after the stop is hit. In most cases, you'll get more drop. In the case of knee levers, some (due to the positioning of the stops) actually raise unchanged strings! Yes...there's "cabinet raise" too.

If it was all in the changer, and due to "axle-flex", there'd be no "cabinet raise".

My2cents

Yes because when you engage a knee lever that lowers a string; you are taking tension off the axle...and therefore strings uneffected by the lower...will raise with the now less tension on the axle.
When you push a pedal and then it stops and then you push harder and there is still drop on the note(s)around it....is because of Rod flexing...is still pulling pressure on the axle.....now if you have Titainium Rods.....this would reduce that problem to a degree; when the stop is made.
I will admit it is all not in the changer/axle...but> with a good changer/axle supported design...you will not have any of the problems and drop is no more than 1cent if that....but with poor changer/axle design....you will have drop and raise and flexing....even if the cabinet is made of concrete or Marble.
Jeff's point of where the conterforce is hooked to and located...indicates the core problem....end of story.
.....and believe me.....Jeff knows.....and Ron knew....and I can tell you of 2 more that know....and the rest will find out.
Ricky

I give up, totally. I will say no more on the subject......I wish Ron Lashley were still with us, a selfish wish on my part, but he kept me going.

Jeff, my Baggett Custom U12 has ALMOST no cabinet drop. (Less than 1 cent on any string with any pedal combination I have checked.) BUT IT HAS NO CHANGER AXLE! The changer looks something like an old Fender 1000 where the string loops back. The change fingers are individually removable and pivot against the changer casting. This leads me to believe that changer axle flex is a main culprit in cabinet drop - but not the only culprit. Certainly putting about 30 pounds pull per string (that's 600 pounds on a D10) to one side of the cabinet will cause it to flex some (think of it as a bow and arrow). Adding to that tension (raising strings) or reducing that tension (lowering strings) is bound to have an effect on that flex amount, and likewise change the note on the unchanged strings as a result. Incidentally, Ron Lashley's device would correct for cabinet flex just as easily as changer axle flex - by counterbalancing the force causing the axle flex - OR the cabinet flex. As he said - whatever the cause, he had the fix. So, all said, keeping the amount of flex - whether in the changer, the cabinet, as low as possible is the cure. I wonder what affect putting tension rods underneath the guitar - endplate to endplate - and equaling the string tension would have - think someone tried this before??

<SMALL>Yes because when you engage a knee lever that lowers a string; you are taking tension off the axle...and therefore strings uneffected by the lower...will raise with the now less tension on the axle.</SMALL>

With all due respect Ricky, who said anything about engaging a knee lever that <u>lowers</u> a string? (I didn't!) The result can be the same even if the knee lever only <u>raises</u> strings. On some older guitars, pressing a floor pedal near the center of the guitar too hard will cause strings on both necks to go flat! Now, when a C6th floor pedal affects the E9th neck tuning, well...I don't think that's got anything to do with axles and cross-shafts. I do agree with Bruce and Bobby, though, and a slight amount of drop (regardless of what causes it) is acceptable.

Gil, I agree with all you say, and the same problem can be caused by different things on different brand guitars. Of note is the fact that at least one Forumite has already tried the idea you mentioned of "opposing-tension" rods underneath the guitar, and yes...he also reported it reduced the problem.

Merry Christmas, guys!