The Steel Guitar Forum

I have a Sierra U12 on a double body. I'm still learning but I find that I NEVER use the 2 extra strings. I like the newer country but I may play some older stuff too (Bob Wills and such.) It seems like the extra 2 strings really serve no purpose for me and might even be in the way. (It's harder to find the 8th string on a 12 string neck. Anyone think I should go back to a 10 string extended tuning of some kind? The only thing is, what if I want to play C6th stuff later? So many decisions to make.

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• Gary Shepherd
• Sierra Session 12
• www.16tracks.com

Gary you'll get used to where the 8th string and all others in a very short time. The U-12 offers the best of both worlds. Hang in there.

I'm not sure what you mean by "2 extra strings".

Basically (or, One way to look at it....), you have got a 10 string E9th neck, and a 10 string B6th neck, superimposed onto one neck, resulting in a total of 12 strings.
There are no "extra" strings.

If you don't want to use strings 11 and 12 (until you "want to learn B6th later") just take 'em off (you can still play a ton of B6th swing on the remaining ten).

So the U10 concept is certainly valid.

Are you talking about strings 11 and 12?
Because on E9th, I have string 12 lowering from B to A on the "A" pedal, so with pedals down you have a huge bottom end (to try it, hit pedals A+B and lower string 12 a full tone to A).

Some guys have string 12 raise B to C#.

I also have string 11(E) hooked up to raise and lower a half tone along with the other E's on my E-raise and E-lower knee levers.
So you could set up those strings to work on E9th and learn to use them in that context, and the B6th changes will still be there when you want them.

But, if you want a new steel altogether, (and I know that feeling) Go For It!

Droopy,

I am assuming you are referring to the 11th and 12th strings. Based upon this assumption, I imagine you are probably playing mostly E9th stuff.

Let me give you a little history of what happened; and then you can decide on what you want to do.

When the PSG began (as we use it today), Bud Isaacs put a pedal on his multi neck steel that basically brought two of the "standard" lap steel tunings into one tuning. I will explain.

Prior to Bud doing what he did, the 3 most popular tunings for the lap steel were:

A6th

E7th

C6th

Many of these were 8 string necks.

So was Bud's guitar that is; his lone pedal changed one of his necks from a basic A tuning to a Basic E tuning. Back in those days few had a high G# and cetainly not strings 1 and 2 like on the Standard E9th tuning of today. These all evolved later.

Since "Bud's" pedal (later split into A and B), brought two of the three "popular tunings" together, Most PSG's were built with 2 necks and had 8 strings each. The top neck was of course a neck that gave us "that sound", and pulled the E7th tuning into an A tuning with a bottom that was a rarely used "suspended tuning".

The bottom neck was used like the prior lap tuning of C6. Since I assume you were not around when this happened, C6 may be totally foreign to you. But C6th was very popluar tuning that was invented by Jerry Byrd.

Buddy Emmons and others added pedals (and later knee levers) to the C neck. They of course had used lots and lots of "slants" (on their lap steels) to get what they now get with pedals and knee levers on the C6 neck.

From the getgo, some (I am one) felt that 2 necks was not necessary. I will even go one step further and state that IF, the PSG had been first, there would only be one neck today. Such was not the case and there is no way to ever prove this. But those of us who lean towards a single neck found quickly that there was great similarities between the two necks; which may NOT seem so to those who didn't evolve with it.

Thus, the universal was born. But there was one big caveat. In order to simulate the chords that could be gotten on the C neck (double neck PSG's), it was mandatory that two more strings be added on the bottom. Such was the 12 string Universal which you play.

Since I assume you are not playing much in the B6th (C6th effectively) mode, these two bottom strings can be a bit cumbersome playing mostly E9th stuff.

So I agree with the poster that suggested taking these two bottom strings off. If you do this, you will have a psuedo E9th tuning, albeit the 9th and 10th strings will be B and G# instead of D and B respectively. You probably have a knee lever that raises your 9th string from a B to a D. I would strongly suggest you raise the 10th string from a G# to a B also with this knee lever. Then you will ALMOST (not quite) emulate exactly what is done on the E9th neck of a D-10 (or S-10).

As to "Extended E9th", now that would open a lot of possiblities for you. It would be EXACTLY like the standard E9th tuning WITH two more notes on the bottom. Which can really embelish your playing if you take the time to explore and use them.

Your tuning (Extended E9th) would look like this (open strings):

F#
D#
G#
E
B
G#
F#
E
D
B
G#
E

You might have to rearrange some pedal and knee lever pulls possibly. But since I assume you play mostly E9th stuff, it would be a great E9th tuning. Remember if you do this, you messup the B6th(C6th) bottom. Die hard U-12r's (like myself) shutter at that thought . But that is because we are so used to our C6th grips. NO way could I personally ever go to Extended E9th. But hey, a lot do it and love it.

So think about it and go for it

And may Our precious Lord and Savior bless you in your quests,

carl

I'll check my tuning when I get home later but I think my guitar is set up as a normal E9 with an extra E and B on the bottom. However, my A pedal does not change the 10th string from B to C# - so that will be one move I make for sure. I also saw on a Joe Wright video I bought, a setup with the C pedal pulling more than just 2 strings. So you can easily go from a I to ii to iii to IV with just the C pedal.

He also had a pedal that pulled 2 strings down a full step. I don't remember which strings but it would be the 3 and 5 or a fmajor chord (no pedals).

I'm considering other changes. I know for sure I'll need A,B, and C pedals. I'll also need D,F levers and whatever lever you use with the D lever to get a 5 chord. I mean, for example, 3rd fret with no pedals is G, 3rd fret with A&B pedals is C, and 3rd fret with D and some other lever is D. I know where they are on my guitar, just don't know what to call them.

I'll also post the tuning chart for my guitar later. I just can't remember it all right now.

But if you guys were going to take a "normal" E9th 10 string neck with A,B,C,D,F pedals and levers, what other changes would you make and why?

More to come.

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• Gary Shepherd
• Sierra Session 12
• www.16tracks.com

Droopy

I play a single 14 full universal and have no longer any problems finding the right strings – it´s all a matter of habit. It´s a full universal – copedant at http://groups.msn.com/countryfolketidalarna/dcmcsfotoalbum.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=91 The 14:th string sounds muddy due to the short neck compared to the electric bass it´s manufactured for, but the other strings sounds quite OK, especially since I changed to Newtone stainless strings that has a considerably clearer tone than any other I´ve tried.
Dive bomber solo work sonds great on the heavy stings, and now I can´t imagine to be whithout them, but that took me a while to figure out.

Hey Anders,

Your copedant is very nice - I mean easy to read and understand. I saw another 14 string copedant somewhere with an extra G# on the first string. It was probably on the Sierra site.

Some questions for you......

What do you do with the 1st pedal that lowers the G#? I see that it would make the major triad into a minor chord with no other pedals. Any other uses

Why not have the C pedal raise the other E and B strings? Or at least strings 8 & 10? I think I'm going to add that change to my guitar.

I'm interested in any other ideas you have.

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• Gary Shepherd
• Sierra Session 12
• www.16tracks.com

Hi Droopy!
The standard Sierra S14 setup is with an extra G# on top, but I prefer the E9 as usual like this, ´cause that´ll give space for some extra goodies down the heavier strings. Thus I have a complete E9 also; the D sting (string 9) is absent in the standard universal tuning, but I use that string a lot for mighty sounding 7:th chords, that resolves in unisone with string 10 A-pedaled.
I´m lousy at music theory, but that first pedal, left of the A pedal, G# to G lower, gives a minor, and also works well in combination with pedal A, and with pedal A and the E to D# lower knee, but I have no idea what those chords are called (as I said I´m lousy at music theory).
(Maybe some Forumites can give more combination suggestions, BTW.)
I didn´t figure out anything of this myself - I just checked the copedant pages in Winnie Winstons old instructions book (that I started with some 25 years ago) and tried several different new changes, and this is what has came out of that this far.
The reason the C pedal doesn´t work on all strings it could, is that I haven´t pullrods enough to do that, but someday I´ll order them, and some other stuff as well, from Sierra. I ought to have done that a long time ago, BTW, but I guess it hasn´t been done because of energy saving (a good euphemism for being lazy).
Winnie Winston also once gave me the good advice to change string 9 with one of the levers (I can´t remember exacly wich one at the moment) to enable strumming with all strings in tune, and I´ll fix that also some day when I feel bored and need some action amongst the machines in the garage.
Anders

==============
I´m lousy at music theory, but that first pedal, left of the A pedal, G# to G lower, gives a minor, and also works well in combination with pedal A, and with pedal A and the E to D# lower knee, but I have no idea what those chords are called (as I said I´m lousy at music theory).
==============

Interesting. That would give you a IV7 chord. For example, 3rd fret no pedals is G. 3rd fret with your combination is C7.

Of course, if I add that pedal to my set up, it would be the 4th pedal as I play the Day setup.

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• Gary Shepherd
• Sierra Session 12
• www.16tracks.com

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by DroopyPawn on 12 January 2003 at 12:55 PM.]</p></FONT>

Droopy, here is a little more historical perspective that might help you figure out what to do. Most of the standard raises and lowers on E9 and C6 are where they are because originally with the old permanent changer fingers you could not both raise and lower the same string, and there were limits on attaching more than one pedal or knee to the same string, even if you didn't mix up the raises and lowers. The push-pull allowed limited raises and lowers on the same string, but adding a lower to a string that already has a raise makes the raise klunky.

Then the modern all-pull mechanism made double and triple raises and lowers on the same string possible and smooth. But because people were used to the old standard raises and lowers where they were, they mostly didn't move them. Even the 12U keeps most of the old E9 and C6 stuff the way they use to be on the old permanents.

Assuming that you are just learning, you are not fettered by habit. If you play mostly E9 stuff now, you should probably keep most of the standard E9 copedent on strings 1-8 (you don't want to get too wierd, or you wont be able to relate to how everyone else plays). But don't give up yet on strings 11 and 12. Whether you prefer to tune 9-12 as a 12U or an extended E9, hook them up with raises and lowers the same as the strings an octave above. You will eventually find great uses for them.

But since you are not fettered to the old C6 "grips", you do not have to learn B6 as a separate neck that only works when you hold the lever that lowers your Es, or throw the B6 locking lever if you have one of those. Instead, you can learn the C6 sounds and chord progressions you like, and add pedal and knee raises and lowers to the E9 configuration to get those. With a modern all-pull you are not limited in the ways that in the past required the C6 to remain a separate neck, or required a locking-lever approach to duplicate the old C6 on the B6U.

I can't yet give you any advice on what these changes might be for you. I recently started working on this same problem myself. I recognized the above historical nature of the standard E9 and C6 setups as I moved from a Sho-Bud Maverick S10 permanent E9 (single raise or single lower, just like the old original pedal steels) to an Emmons S12 push-pull E9 to a Fessenden S12U all-pull. When you look at the standard E9 and C6 setups you are looking at not just the history of the raises and lowers people wanted through the years for musical reasons, you are also looking at what was done because of some original mechanical limitations that are no longer with us. The same thing happened with the typewriter. The QWERTY keyboard was set up to keep letters frequently used together separated, so they wouldn't jam easily. Now that we use electronic computer keyboards that have long since ceased to have that problem, we are still stuck with this really awkward keyboard.

One final suggestion for finding your way in all those 12 strings. Take a tip from harp players (who have losts more strings) and color-code some of the strings. I take a red marking pen and run it down the near side of my 7th string (the F# or the 2nd or 9th note of the scale). That's the string you mostly have to skip over and avoid, and knowing where it is helps you find the 8th string (your root with no pedals) or your 6th string (your root with the AB pedals down). If your 9th string is D (E9 extended), you might want to color it too.

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Student of the Steel, and cheap instrument connoisseur: customized 1970 Sho-Bud Maverick, Fessy S12U, Emmons S12 E9 P/P, Nashville 400, Fender Squire, Peavey Transtube Supreme into JBL 15", 1968 Gibson J50, '60s Kay arch-top, 7-string Raybro, customized Korean Regal square-neck, roundneck Dobro 90C, 1938 Conn Chu Berry tenor sax, '50s Berg mouthpiece, Hamilton upright piano. You make it, I'll play it (more or less)

Thanks David for the additional history lesson. Very interesting. I've about decided to got with an extended E9th because my guitar is already tuned to E9th. However, the extra E and B on the 11th and 12th strings go a little lower than I think I'll need or like. I'm considering a tuning with a G# and E on the bottom. I think that's what b0b plays.

So the main changes I'll have right now for sure are pedals A,B,C. The A pedal will raise all the B strings to C#. (Right now my 10th string does not change.) B will raise G# strings to A (all of them) and C will do the full tone raise on 4 strings. (or maybe 5 depending on what I decide for strings 11 and 12.)

Naturally I'll want and F lever to raise the E strings to F. And a D lever to lower the E's to D#. I'm considering adding another change to that lever so that it will lower my D string to C#. See another post that I just made about this and the included tab to see why I want this change.

As for the other 3 levers and the other 4 pedals, who knows. I'm considering a pedal (probably # 4) to lower the G# to G as seen in a reply above. That leaves me with 3 other pedals to do crazy stuff with.

I can get a 1,4 and 5 chord all on the same fret starting with no pedals, then A+B pedals, then D Lever along with one that lowers my G# strings to F# but I don't like that g#/F# lever moving to the left (on the left leg.) But maybe if I get it to move a little easier, it would be ok? How do you do that? Smaller Spring? I also need to review the Joe Wright tape I watched to see the other changes he had on that GFI guitar.

And I assume I'll need to order more rods or whatever from Sierra. Will that be expensive?

gs

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• Gary Shepherd
• Sierra Session 12
• www.16tracks.com

Well, I tried this with HTML but it didn't work very well. I should have just posted a picture to start with.

Here's what I have now. I intend to change strings 11 and 12 for sure. Probably to G# and E. Any ideas on changes? Next, I'll post a copedant for what I know I will want on the new tuning and we can add to it from there if anyone wants to help.


<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by DroopyPawn on 12 January 2003 at 06:45 PM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by DroopyPawn on 12 January 2003 at 06:47 PM.]</p></FONT>

Here's what I'm considering for the new setup. See any problems? I was going to put pedals 4 & 5 together but I though that might be too hard to push so I split them. More possibilities like that anyway.

I still have room for more changes on the other 2 pedals. Though I'm not sure I could ever get my foot to them.



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• Gary Shepherd
• Sierra Session 12
• www.16tracks.com

It just occured to me that I still have the E strings available unchanged when I lower the D to C# because I can pull the E strings back up with the F lever. So many possibilities.

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• Gary Shepherd
• Sierra Session 12
• www.16tracks.com

You're lowering all your G#'s to F# on both LKL and P4? I'm not sure about a Sierra, but most guitars won't lower the third string G# that far.

I hadn't noticed the duplication. Maybe I'll delete pedal 4. What's the deal with string 3? More info?

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• Gary Shepherd
• Sierra Session 12
• www.16tracks.com

Hi Gary,
If I had your set-up I'd put a C# between the 4th and 5th ... E and B strings and think along those lines.
Baz
www.waikiki-islanders.com


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<SMALL>Steel players do it without fretting</SMALL>

http://www.waikiki-islanders.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

If your pedals are too stiff, you can try moving the pull rods closer to the body on the bell cranks. I don't know about your model of Sierra, but most guitars have 4 to 6 slots on the bell cranks for attaching the pull rods. Regardless of which slot is used, the pull rod has to be pulled the same distance to get the desired raise (or lower). If it is attached to an outer slot on the bell crank, then the pedal doesn't have to move far to rotate the bell crank through the distance the pull rod must travel, but the pedal action is stiff. If you move the rod to closer to the body on the bell crank, the pedal will have to move further to rotate the crank enough to pull the rod through its required travel distance. Because you are now spreading the work over a greater rotation, the pedal action is easier (more leverage). So, further from the body means stiffer and shorter pedal action, closer to the body means softer but longer pedal action.

But there is more to it than that. When a pedal is moving more than one pull rod, you want them to all move together. Because of the strings different guages, they require different distances to pull, even if they are each changing the same musical interval (i.e., all a half step, or all a whole step). To make the strings pull together, on some bell cranks you will need to put the pull rods at different slots on the bell crank. This just means you don't have unlimited possibilities for choosing bell crank slots to achieve the desired pedal action, but must sometimes compromise a little between getting the perfect pedal action, and getting the strings to all change together (or very nearly so).

Also, there is a limit to how much rotation you can get for your bell cranks. The smaller guage strings require more rotation. That's why Jim Smith is cautioning that the high G# (3rd string), which is the smallest of all, might not be able to lower a whole step to F#. Another problem can be the 6th string if you try to use a wound string there. A wound string will have a smaller core than a plain string of a similar guage. Thus, the wound string will need more travel, more than some guitars allow.

Finally, a tip for working on your undercarriage. For small quick adjustments, don't turn your guitar all the way over. Work on a thick carpet, and just lay it down on its front. You can then kneel down and and have good access to the undercarriage, and also be able to work your knee levers and pedals to watch what is happening. If you do want to turn the guitar upside down for better access, be sure to rest the body on some padded blocks along each side of the neck. Do not let the weight of the guitar press on the strings at the changer. The guitar is very heavy and the strings will cut grooves in the changer - big, expensive trouble.

These are just some tips I have recently learned while working on my S12U setup. Hope they help.

You can get the G# on the 3rd string to lower to G on all guitars I've owned, but I've never been able to, nor seen anyone else, lower G# to F# on 3, so I assume that it's not possible. The reason is the amount of throw required exceeds the limit provided by the changer.

If you're playing only music you hear on the radio today, there's little need for the lower strings if all you want to do is duplicate what you hear, since 99.44% of that music is played on 10 string E9. I hear a lot of tunes that don't use a string lower than the 8th. That doesn't mean you have to play the tune that way all the time. One joy of the universal is to translate/transpose some of those cool E9 licks down an octave. Another approach would be to learn some C6 (using your B6 position with E's lowered to D#). Once you find some of those big fat chord positions, you'll find all kinds of ways to intetgrate those sounds into other stuff you're playing.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Try playing the standard intro to Johnny Cash's "Folsum Prison Blues" on a 10-string E-9th tuning.....Now you understand why you have "extra" strings on a U-12! As an alternative, you could go buy a guitar player.
~~W.C.~~

For what it's worth.....I played a 12-string extended E9 for about two years. I *rarely* used the 11 & 12 strings, as they did nothing more than rattle all of the windows in the house. When I played out in my band, the other guys would usually have one of two comments: 1) Playing anything on those two strings sounds like mud....knock it off! *or* 2) What were you playing? I couldn't hear a thing!

As powerful an amp you might have, those lower strings seem to have a hard time cutting through the mix in a live setting....and when they do cut through, it doesn't sound very good (although it could have been my amp, my guitar, the sound system....). And, like I said, even when practicing by myself, they created more *noise* than *music*.

The point has also been made that it is difficult to find certaing strings (i.e. the 8th string). I agree that it would be easy to just take the bottom two strings off. But my feeling is that the resale value of 12-strings is less than that of 10-strings, so why buy the 12 if you aren't going to use it? Also, my guitar's strings were spaced a bit closer together than a normal ten....this can create problems either right away (if you are coming from a guitar with normal spacing) or down the road (should you sell the 12 and go to a 10). Of course, I have heard that many 12-strings do not suffer this spacing problem.

Hope something in that mess I just wrote helps!

Joe

(P.S. My setup was a Dekley 12-string and a Nashville 400 w/factory mod)

There are different techniques required to play a 12-string. It's true, the bottom two strings will try to play a cello concerto while you're playing Rocky Top if your bar is covering too many strings. On a 10-string you can get away with it, but a 12-string will teach you how important it is to pick up the blunt end of the bar slightly to avoid the noise.

As far as the bottom two strings sounding bad, there's a lot of variation from guitar to guitar, but some DON'T SOUND BAD. If your amp has the proper EQ they will penetrate just fine (as my bandmates will attest ).

Joe, I don't understand why removing the lower two strings would change the value of the guitar. You can just take the strings off and play 10 instead of 12.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Hey Droopy,
I think it´s not a very good idea to put the 2nd string D# to D/C# lower and the 5th and 10th string B to Bb on the same lever. The 2nd string lower is often used in combination with the 5th string, either unchanged or with the A pedal on, and the B to Bb will mess that up.
If I were you, I´d put the G# to G that now is on RKR on a pedal and use RKR for the 2nd string lower. You might consider putting the 9th string D to C# lower on the same lever, as it is often done, also to take some tension off of that lever. (But then you won´t be able to use it in conjunction with your D to D#. Oh yeah.) One possible solution might be to swap LKL and RKL. In that way you´d have both E string changes on the same leg which TO ME (I know some don´t agree) makes more sense anyway.
Also, in addition to the mechanical problems, I don´t think it makes that much sense musically to lower strings 3 and 11 to F#. Rather, put a half-step raise for the 2nd string (D# to E) on that lever, that will sound nice with the 1st string raise.
Oh, and if I had a guitar with that configuration like yours, I´d use the extra pedals for something, possibly a single E to F# raise for the 4th string (which is a must for me) and maybe a whole step raise for strings 5 and 6; that gives a cool 7th chord and can also duplicate the C6 "pedal 7" to some degree.
I personally prefer Extended E9 over Universal for a 12 string. If you haven´t been at it for too long and have some E9 knowledge, you will find the low G# and E a natural extension of the tuning, whereas on the Universal they are part of the E9/B6 concept which requires a whole different way of thinking. I don´t say it´s not possible to get into that, but it really takes a lot of study and determination. Of course, for the older guys like Carl, who already had a vast C6 background, it comes more natural. I think Extended E9 will keep you busy for a good while.

Good luck, Joe H.


<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Joe Henry on 14 January 2003 at 11:58 AM.]</p></FONT>

As Joe has said, and as others have said, I could show you any number of hangups on the tuning(s) you have suggested. But I choose not to.

I will just tell you this. For over 40 yrs, I have been drawing setups for D-10's and U-12's, If you were to come into my house it would not take you long to find literally dozens of setups on every conceivable piece of paper and books. I have drawn literally thousands of them over these many years. When I flew across this US in my working days, I used to wile away the flying hours tying on my "latest and greatest" ideas in a new copedent.

Only to find out later...."ooops", Meaning, "this won't work because of...."

I said all the above to tell you that your best bet is NOT to try and outdo what most of the pros do! Cus in all likelyhood you are going to discover what they have already forgotten. And that is.....

"oops, that ain't gonna work because.....".

But be that as it may, God bless you in your determination, dedication and creativity,

carl

Hi Larry,

What I meant to say (and I could be wrong) is that the value of a 12-string seems to be less than that of a comparable 10-string with the same amount of pedals, knees, etc. Or, at the very least, a 12-string is much harder to sell than a 10-string.

So, someone owning a 12-string and keep the bottom two strings off would probably be better off just owning a 10-string in the first place, since they would ultimately find an easier time selling the 10-string (and perhaps get a better cash value for it) should they ever decide to sell it.

Of course, this is just my opinion based on my buying/selling experiences.

Joe