The Sound?

Dennis Lee · From: Forest Grove, Oregon, USA

I'm fishing for suggestions to accomplish the tone that I hear on George Strait's recordings. It has plenty of body and depth. I'm working with either an FSK, Webb and Lexicon or Behringer reverb/delay pedal. Can anyone tell me how to accomplish this without a studio soundman, so that my ear is pleased? Really, any suggestions would be welcomed.

Daniel Policarpo · From: Kansas City

I really like working with a decent EQ pedal. I use an EHX Knockout Attack on one amp and a Dano Fish n Chips on another, but I hear the 10 band MXR graphic eq works great for steel, too and is not expensive. EQ really does offer great sonic augmentation for your sound and many engineers will use really nice studio equalizers to get those sounds, but at a player level, a decent EQ pedal may be just what you are looking for.

Dennis Lee · From: Forest Grove, Oregon, USA

Many thanks. Not being a technical genius, I will look into your suggestions. I really appreciate your taking the time to address my questions. Many thanks my friend! I'll pay it forward!
Dennis

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

I would suspect that the tone you admire is almost entirely in the hands, choices and VP technique of the player. It is very doubtful that the studio engineer had to apply very much EQ (if any), most likely a bit of limiting and reverb to fit it into the mix was all that was necessary.

Beware of passing your signal through too many EQ filters, very little to no good at all can come of it. As far as effects, a decent reverb is all that is needed, just pick that thing like you mean it and don't stop practicing, that's how it's done in the real world.

Cartwright Thompson · Posted 29 Apr 2014 11:30 am

Dave speaketh the truth. Nicely put.

Dennis Lee · From: Forest Grove, Oregon, USA

Wow, guess I don't know anything about the psg. I'll have to get with the "real world" and see how that goes.

Bill Moran · From: Virginia, USA

Efx are not the answer. The sound comes from the hands and the instrument. Reverb to taste. Smile

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Bill

Daniel Policarpo · From: Kansas City

I appreciate what you guys are saying, but every amp or pickup is somewhat limited or able to excel in some capacity as far as what kind of timbre your going to be able to get out of it. An eq doesn't make up for practice or technique, that much is true, but it can do something like add low end depth, or give you a good sting on the mid-range that might not be possible from a humbucker, etc. It's not taking the place of anything, it's a little spice. I mean, why do we get so particular as to what kind of amp or steel we use, if its all in the hands? Why bother changing speakers, tubes, swapping out a chip or turning the knobs on the amp if its all in the hands? If your steel doesn't come with a tone knob, an eq can help bridge the natural timbre of your instrument with what is going on with the amp to get the sound that is pleasing to you.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Yes, Daniel. BUT Paul, Tommy, Buddy, Weldon et al will sound pretty much like themselves whether through a Peavey or a Fender or a Milkman or whatever.
90% of tone is in the hands: the remaining 10% keeps the music stores in business.
The guitar on the George Strait records was probably Mullen, Zum or Emmons (or similar: what did Weldon use most? I thought he played on a lot of them) and probably through a Peavey, Evans or Webb.
I doubt there is any real secret.
The biggest tone suck newbies have is a weak right hand, as if they're afraid of clams.
You want it to sound good? Pick it like you're mad at the pickups
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Dennis Lee · From: Forest Grove, Oregon, USA

I am feeling a little insulted by Dave and Lane. Neither of you know my skill level or how long I have been playing. I think Daniel made some valid points. I'm sure you both have your preferences of guitar and amp, and why is that? What effects do the both of you use. I didn't start this thread to have you talk me down, as I'm sure there is much to do with recording effects that make us strive for the holy grail sound. Why all the discussion about different guitars on this forum if there are not some distinct differences in tonal quality, etc. If it's all in the hands, then most of us might just as well sell our equipment and go fishing. Have you both arrived at "that" sound? If so, why do we not see your names in the HOF? I'm done with this thread.
Thanks go out to Daniel who actually made the most sense.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I hadn't meant to be insulting. To my ears it never has wounded like anything else is on those steels than picker and amp.
And you didn't share how you set your knobs.
Most steel players set their amps fairly close to the following (every now and then someone posts the settings the major players used at St. Louis, and they all will be fairly close to this):
Gain: 3-4
Bass: between +9 and +15
Mid: -3 to -6
Shift: between 800 and 1000
High and Presence: just a bit of boost.

Again, no insult was meant
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

Sometimes the tone or sound comes from simple studio techniques. Such as tape flange, double tracking, stereo reverb and many others. I often record a track with a touch of stomp box reverb and it sounds pretty good. In the final recording mix I'll add stereo reverb from a Reaper VSTi and the sound becomes wall to wall FAT!

Both Buddy Emmons and Charleton have completely different tone on their early Sho-Buds versus their later Emmons guitars. Same style yes, but different tone. Their tone through the early Standels was pretty awesome in person compared to the later Peavey gear as well. Everything from pickups, cords, volume pedals, effects, amps, guitars, picks, bars, players technique, bar placement, pick point, recording process, and much more can have a large impact on tone. I've heard some mediocre players achieve awesome tone on their setups.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

The best advice for amp tone I've ever heard is from Jerry Byrd, who used a Fender Twin Reverb. He said to start with bass on 10 and add treble and midrange until it sounds right. Typically, I've found that this means add a little bit midrange and a fair amount of treble. Sometimes I do have to back off the bass to 9 or 8 because the room is too boomy.

Also, I use just enough reverb that I can hear it softly after I block a note or chord. When I use a delay, I set it for a single repeat (little or no feedback) at about 280 ms. I keep it low in the mix (~20%) for general playing, but turn it up to 30% or 35% for the slow songs.

Everybody has different methods. What I described above is just what I do. What they say about the hands is true, though. Sometimes I'll start the evening and my tone will be terrible. An hour later it will be great - without touching any controls! The angle of your picks, the strength of the attack, and where on the length of string you choose to play each note - these three factors have a huge effect on the tone coming out of the amp.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video

Brett Lanier · From: Hermitage, TN

I'm sure they meant no disrespect Dennis. I'm only here to say that I've realized just lately how big of an issue this is for me (picking like a sissy). Picking the strings hard and having the bar pressure and volume pedal technique to keep up with that is more difficult than I ever knew. Adjusting to that makes the simplest things suddenly seem a lot more difficult, but clearly a worthy investment once you hear the playback.
I know you said you're out, but I'm curious what Strait tunes you're thinking of?

Dennis Lee · From: Forest Grove, Oregon, USA

I appreciate the things that have been shared here, Greg, Bob, Daniel, et all, for giving me some actual ideas. I apologize if I "came off the handle" so to speak. I realize the importance of the hands, and it is something I work on every time I make seat time. At least I have validated some of it is in the equipment, and that helps me to construct my amp settings. I'm not one for loading down with effects, but it can also be too sterile without the proper amount of reverb, and some delay, at times. I didn't realize this would become the thread it has evolved into, but I guess the Forum is known for it's many opinions and lively discussion. I feel better now, and I do value each and every one of you for your knowledge. Peace Out!

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

Dennis get to the steel jam on this Sunday, you can talk tone and equipment till the cows come home.

Daniel was right on track with his comments, I feel.

Larry Behm
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'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Stereo Steel amp, Telonics 15” speaker.

Phone: 971-219-8533

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

if you are trying to copy sounds from recordings, you are never going to achieve them. you have to take into play the room it was recorded in...the mic used...the mic technique...the console...the eq used on the console..the mixing..the mastering...there are so many variables. what you hear on a record sometimes is not what you would hear if you were actually in the room with the player while it was being recorded. so much messed with by the time you hear it on the CD.

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

Tubes.

Remember that Jerry Byrd, Jimmy Day, Buddy Emmons, Lloyd Green, John Hughey, Hal Rugg, Curly Chalker, and the many great players' tones from the classic recordings all came from a tube amp. Guitar into a pot pedal into a tube amp. In my opinion, a very central theme there is that the pickup had a direct connection to the first tube in the tube amp. As soon as we add a transistor device before the tube, then the pickup's tone changes. Pickups sound and react and "feel" different when they see a transistor first compared to when they see a tube first. This tube factor can't be overlooked. I see so many people chasing tone with pedals and EQ's and speakers when they'd very likely love their tone if they simply went old school or somehow made sure that the pickup sees a tube first. Even with modern recordings, it seems that nearly all the great tones of recent years still incorporate tubes somehow. It seems crazy not to.

And yes, the hands are the #1 tone maker, no question about it, the touch, getting the strings moving, it's very much in the hands. But I think way too many people are focused on EQ when what really matters with the electronics is the "harmonic" content or quality of the signal path. That is where the "tone" is in the electronics. This recent Little Walter phenomenon has really proven this point. The amps have almost NO EQ, no midrange dip, but the harmonic quality of the midrange and treble is SO sweet and harmonically rich from the tubes that the effect in the end is a tone that mixes well, feels fun to play, and has virtually no harshness. Now I know the LW amps don't satisfy everyone with it's lack of EQ-ability, but the point is that the tubes are what help to make the tone so nice and sweet and low-fatigue.

Another BIG aspect to using tubes is that players find that it's a LOT easier to hear the steel guitar when it's full of rich tube-enhanced harmonics, and they can get away with playing at lower volumes requiring less power. For some reason, a 35 to 60 watt amp is often easier to hear in a stage mix than a 200 to 400 watt solid state amp. People are finding this with Tim's new Milkman tube amps too. People who play with tubes in the chain also report less ringing of the ears, less bad effect on tinnitus.

EQ is not the answer. While it's important, it doesn't make "tone" happen.

Brad

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Drew Pierce · From: Arkansas, USA

I may have missed it, but I don't see where delay was mentioned. I have never been able to get the sound I like without some kind of delay. I went through Echoplex, ProFex, QuadraVerb, Nanoverb, Lexicon and a strange little gadget called an Arion Hot Watt (not necessarily in that order) before I finally settled on a simple Boss RV3. I like it best because, unlike the others, it sounds fine and is idiot-proof easy to operate. A big plus for me. Wink

It's true that the sound you hear in recordings is not a reliable indicator. There's so much that can be done in the studio to modify the sound after its recorded. A noted producer once said "Almost anything can sound good if you put enough slop on it".
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Drew Pierce
Emmons D10 Fatback, S10 bolt-on, Zum D10, Evans RE500, Hilton volume and delay pedals.

Daniel Policarpo · From: Kansas City

I don't think you are reading correctly. Where did I say this was going to make you sound like a better player? Where did I say this was a sauve for poor practice regimen or anything? Where did I say this was going to make anyone a better player? Man, you guys really take some assumptions and like to shove them right up everybody else's wazoo. Before I played steel, I played guitar and trumpet in lots of bands, most of which are recorded. I've been playing music for 31 years, and trust me, I know how to put in time on the practice wheel;. I do it everyday. I will say this one more time. We are talking about a little EQ, not some auto tune or something that is going to cover up anything! Geez, you guys chase off more prospective steelers with your misdirection, lack of comprehension, and assumptions.

Dennis wants to get a little more depth to his signal, and that is all my comment is directed toward answering. He nor I mention anything about finding a short cut to better technique, or mention technique at all. Why? because we know how to work on technique and we practice at it. Your not trying to further anybody's development, it's jsut the same old broken record over and over again, repeated by others, hardly able to comprehend a simple query. Yeah, tone is in the hands. Yeah, and cars drive on wheels. Great advice!

Listen to what people say before you stick your foot in it again.

Just my opinion, of course.

Daniel Policarpo · From: Kansas City

[quote="Bob Hoffnar"]

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

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