The Steel Guitar Forum

I'm wondering - you fellas with more than five knees on a universal - how to you lay them out physically - or do you have a couple of "clusters" and really play E9 stuff with one set and C6 (B6) stuff with the other cluster? I have only five and my LKR is far enough to the right side of the guitar that I can access it while playing E9 stuff, and still hit it when playing C6 stuff (it lowers B's to A# and 2nd D# to D).

Hey Gil,
Glad to see and an Orange Country boy on the Forum. I played all over OC while I lived in Garden Grove. Places like Shire's in Stanton, the Swizzle Stik in HB, the Paddock in Los Alamitos, and other places. As for the Universal on my LKL I raise the 2nd string to D# (it's tuned to C#) and lower the 10th string to Bb. My verticle lowers the 5th string to Bb and my LKR raises the 2nd string to D and my 9th string to D. I tune my guitar like and extended E9 but my 2nd and 9th strings are tuned to C# and I have the Universal pedal changes. Where do you lower your E's on your guitar. I lower mine on RKR and raise them to F on RKL. I miss the Orange country area a lot but there's more music going on back here in Virginia......Later dude!!!!!

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

I guess I meet your criteria. I play U-12 guitars exclusively -- have for 27 years -- and I like a slew of knee levers.

My philosophy is strictly practical and goes something like this:
The E to D# change is combined with a lot of pedals (all the B6 pedals, plus the B and sometimes the A pedal). Putting it on the right leg is important for me because the left leg has the most knee levers available -- WHATEVER I put there, it can be combined with the Eb lever AND the Eb lever can be combined with all pedals. I have my own prejudices about what goes where, lever wise, but I think they're just that: personal preference.

Buddy Emmons or no Buddy Emmons, I still can't fathom how a universal player can really get the most out of the tuning lowering the E's on LKR. JUST MY PREFERENCE/OPINION. I know there are some on the Forum who do -- please don't take offense.

You can see the rest of my changes on this page.

Works for me. Send me email if you want to discuss details. This is pretty complicated stuff, but there are pros and cons for most any configuration.

Re: Two 'clusters' of levers
If you play the universal as a double neck replacement, I see no problem with laying out the levers much as one would a D-10. However, I use ALL the B6 changes with E9. There are more little 'happy accidents' hiding on the standard U-12 E9/B6 setup than you can imagine. As an example, start in A, no pedals, at the 5th fret -- strings 3,4,5,6. If the progression goes to the II7 (B7), you can use the 7th pedal (raises 5&6 a whole tone) to get that change with really cool tonal motion. There are a BUNCH of ways that the 6th tuning stuff can be incorporated into the WHOLE UNIVERSAL GUITAR, which is the way I prefer to visualize the instrument. That's why I would never have a knee lever that requires moving my leg/knee into a different 'cluster' to reach. That's the feature that bugs me the most about a D-10.

Again, just my opinion.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Jerry - I'm having a hard time finding anywhere that plays c/w or even old big band standards out here. All I hear is rap rap rap (just noise IMHO). Anyway, I moved here from southern Tennessee and there were a zillion little joints looking for bands. Seems out here unless Alan Jackson or the Dixie Chicks is on the venue, they just wanna hear that damn noise....But I have to admit, I don't get around much....
Larry - You approach the instrument just the way I do. I never did play C6 well (even before pedals) but after many years of struggle became as good as I'll probably ever be on the E9th. So when I went to the universal, I just started adding the C6 changes (as I discovered them) to my normal E9 playing. As a matter of fact, I probably play more with the E-flat lever in than out - but still basically just an "enhanced" E9th style. Incidentally, E to E-flat is RKR for me, E's to F on RKL. I have no problem holding that knee engagled when using the any of the pedals, and releasing it from time to time adds color to my C6-sounding stuff. Anyway, what I was getting at is how you lay your knees out PHYSICALLY so that you don't have to get around one to get to another - I can see possibly 2 LKL, 2 LKV, maybe 1 or 2 LKF, a LKR, and 2 right knees. It seems that other than the forward knees, they would always be in each other's way.....Anyway, thanks very much for your response.
Guys like these make this forum informative and just plain interesting.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Gil Berry on 05 December 2002 at 09:50 AM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Gil Berry on 05 December 2002 at 09:53 AM.]</p></FONT>

Wow, Larry, if I had looked at your website before I responded above, I wouldn't have sounded so stupid. Looking at the underside of your Fessy is a real treat, and just what I was trying to visualize. Thanks. Gil

I think the prize for maximum indulgence in the knee lever race goes (posthumously) to Julian Tharpe. I seem to recall one of his old Bud Jet XIV guitars with 10x10 on a SINGLE 14. Don't remember whether he had two left 'clusters', but I do remember looking underneath that guitar at Deeman's Den AGES ago and I swear I saw COATHANGERS under there, but more knees than I could ever imagine on a single neck guitar.

Terry Wood -- you out there????
How was that guitar set up? I think the one I saw was one of his last Buds, before he went to BMI.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

A "Left Knee Forward" is soon to be in the works for me (bringing me to 8x6).
I think LKF's will be the next big craze!
I've seen them on Emmons LeGrandes (Jerry Brightmans axe, see pix at his website), and also saw a D10 with LKF's on BOTH LK clusters on a "Mooney" PSG at the Chattanooga convention last year.
I think S12U players in particular will find the LKF idea to be a nice user friendly advancement.