4th Pedal ? Beats me!

Dave Seddon · Post by **Dave Seddon** » 27 Nov 2002 11:33 am

I have just put a 4th pedal on my guitar, I use the Day setup so I have put the pedal to the right of the others, I have set it up several different ways, first I tried the Franklin change, which only seemed to give me a similar effect to using the B&C pedals, then I tried raising the 1st& 2nd strings a full tone which is like doubling up on the 3rd & 4th. Then I tried lowering the 3rd & 6th to G. I just can't see the benefit of any of these changes on a 4th pedal, it seems very awkward, on kneelevers OK. So has anyone got any other Ideas.
Cheers
Dave.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 27 Nov 2002 12:08 pm

Dave, I have just begun experimenting with the 4th Pedal Franklin set-up, which lowers the 5 string from B to A, the 6 string G# to F# and the 10 Sting B to A. Along with the Eb lever and the F# to G# Raise lever this makes for some pretty awesome stuff.especially on the V chord changes .And this is with very limited pedal 4 playing time.. I do find it a little awkward to access it but heck..the whole stinkin' Instrument is a little awkward..don't ya think ?

Just a thought

tp[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 27 November 2002 at 12:09 PM.][This message was edited by Tony Prior on 27 November 2002 at 01:19 PM.]

Wayne Cox · Post by **Wayne Cox** » 27 Nov 2002 10:12 pm

Try something really simple,like raising the first string a whole tone,with no other pulls on the pedal. Or try raising just the 4th string a whole tone. These are real neat sounds,all by themselves,and are very simple to setup. If you want something more primal,yet simple,try lowering the middle F# to E,then strum across the strings. If you want something with more of a C6th flavor,think B6th,using the Eb lever and hook a standard C6th change on P4. The possibilities are almost endless.
~~W.C.~~

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 28 Nov 2002 4:43 am

If it is next to the Apedal (10&5 B-C#) try 6string G#-A#. works with Apedal or Aped & E's-F or Aped & E's-Eb or together with e's-Eb and release ped4.
Bengt

Whip Lashaway · Post by **Whip Lashaway** » 28 Nov 2002 7:11 am

I have the G#-A# raise on pedal 4 next to my C pedal. I use it with Both E9 and B6. I think I use it more on the E9 side than anything. Get a lot of stuff using with C pedal and a lot of knees. Worth trying.
Whip

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Whip Lashaway
Sierra E9/B6 12 string
Sierra E9/B6 14 string

Dennis Boyd · Post by **Dennis Boyd** » 28 Nov 2002 10:19 am

Dave,

I am about to change my first 3 pedals to the Day setup (CBA). I hope I'm not shooting myself in the foot so to speak. Have you used that setup all along? It seemed like a better arrangement along with pedal 4 (lower G#-A# strings) on my Universal tuning. I had tried using that pedal 4 change on pedal 1 with the standard setup (ABC). I've experimented some with my tuning and am finally coming to a conclusion, I think. Switching the A&B pedals will seem awkward I'm sure, but I hope it works.

The change you mentioned where you lowered the G# strings to G with a pedal next to the A pedal change is good also. Those 2 pedals along with the E to D# KL used separately make up all the minor triads. I've got that change on a vertical KL.

There are many options available. All good in their own way. It's too bad we can't have them all. Let us know what you come up with.

Dennis Boyd
Sierra 14-string E9/6 Universal 8/9

Dave Seddon · Post by **Dave Seddon** » 28 Nov 2002 10:59 am

Dennis
I have always used the Day setup, I did try once to use the Emmons set up when I got my first push-pull some years ago but I couldn't hack it, I'm going through some of these 4th pedal options at the moment with some difficulty. It's really hard to know which is the most useful. I think it's going to be a case of spend a few days with each option, unless of course something just clix. More suggestions are always welcome
Cheers
dave

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 28 Nov 2002 1:49 pm

I don't know what got Dave started on the 'Day' set-up, but I think there's a disproportionate number of 'Day' players in the UK.

It's just a guess, but when Eric Snowball imported a number of ZBs in the early-to-mid '70s, they all came in hooked-up that way; that's the reason I play 'Day' - I didn't know any different - and I imagine that others took the same 'route' for that reason....

My thanks goes to Eric and his 'Steel Mill' store in Maidstone, Kent, for taking the risk of committing to pedal steel, and for helping a lot of us get started!

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Roger Rettig

Allan Thompson · Post by **Allan Thompson** » 28 Nov 2002 2:11 pm

Yes Roger,
Eric Snowball and the late Gordon Huntley have a lot to answer for.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 28 Nov 2002 8:20 pm

Quite right, Allan - I failed to credit dear Gordon. What a nice man - he was probably the driving force behind Eric's decision, and almost certainly Britain's first pedal steel player!

Dave Seddon · Post by **Dave Seddon** » 28 Nov 2002 11:10 pm

Roger I think you are probably right, Before I got my first MSA I had a Denley and that was how I got it. I think a lot of British players have now changed to the Emmons setup, and of course the younger players that are just starting up, it is natural to them as they are buying guitars already with the Emmons setup.
Cheers Dave.

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 28 Nov 2002 11:17 pm

For you guys with the Day set-up.Tommy Whites copendent is the way to go.Just my opinion of course.You can find it here. http://b0b.com/tunings/stars.html#E9tw

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 29 Nov 2002 6:09 am

Almost exactly what I have, Bobby - I think this set-up has it all.

I lower 5 AND 10 a whole step, though, and I don't raise the 7th on RKR. I will think about it, mind you - there has to be a good use for it. Maybe I'll get it on my new guitar.....

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 29 Nov 2002 10:26 am

Roger having the 7th string 1/2 raise with the 2nd and 9th string lower can shut down a large pocket unless you release it and then press the knee again.You can however play around the 7th string or mute it and play as above stated.The 7th string 1/2 tone raise gives you some nice Lloyd Green sounding things without slanting the bar or half pedaling the A pedal.Many other things to.

Also having the 1st and second string raise on the 4th will cause you to miss a major 7th.But there are major 7th's all over the the neck.
Finally it's not just having the changes but where you have them.If you want to get the full benefit of these changes you'll need to place them on the same pedals,knee pedals as Tommy has them.A lot of folks have the 1st and 2nd string raise along with the 6th string drop.This I don't care for at all.

However, if your more in to say Paul Franklin you'll want his set-up or as close as you can get.I love both their set-ups. So I added a 2nd (RKL) witch enables me to have both set-ups.With the exception of Pauls 6th string G# to E lower.Again only my opinion.------------bb [This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 29 November 2002 at 10:37 AM.]

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 29 Nov 2002 2:10 pm

That's interesting, Bobby - I agree that raising the 7th along with the 9th drop negates a lot of the wonderful voicings you can get with lowering 9 along with either A and B, or B and C pedals; after reading the 'link' to Tommy'e set-up that you provided, I tuned my 7th up and fooled around for a bit. I can't say I liked the result, and I wonder why he has it that way. It WON'T be going on my new guitar!

Tommy's such a great and intelligent player, and it's certain that he sees something I don't - I had to try it and see for myself, but the penny hasn't dropped yet!

It's the same with raising 1 and 2 along with lowering 6 - it spoils a lot of what you can get, in particular that major seventh with the main pedals - I don't see that one, either. I did once see a steel with a small metal tab affixed to the side of a pedal - it allowed the player to get three pedals with one foot! That might work for me (I wonder if Bruce would do it!)

Right now, I have 1 and 2 raising on an inside LKL, but I can barely reach it, which discourages me from using it at all unless I'm only playing in the house; I'm seriously thinking of losing my 6th lower LKV and putting the 1+2 raise in there instead.
(I know you think I'd regret this decision

)

In the end, though, I believe in my basic four knees - raising and lowering the 'E's, lowering the 'B's, and lowering 2 and 9 - the rest are 'lick pedals' and simply 'icing on the cake'; as you say, there are major sevenths all over the neck. I'm not interested in copying an individual player, but I am obsessed with finding more complex chords on E9 - TW's a master at that, and one of my all-time favourites!

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Roger Rettig

Wiz Feinberg · Post by **Wiz Feinberg** » 29 Nov 2002 2:26 pm

Here is my 4th pedal copedant, which I have been using successfully since around 1975 or 76. It only works on the E9 neck, and is on the 4th pedal from the left end.

<pre>
String#: Note: Change: New Note:
5 B ++ C#
6 G# + A
9 D - C#
10 B -- A
</pre>

My complete copedent is on my Wiztunes website, at www.wiztunes.com/copedent.html
[This message was edited by Wiz Feinberg on 20 December 2006 at 02:29 PM.]