The Steel Guitar Forum

So 7 of us are getting together Wed, running these units up and down the flag pole, I will let you know the outcome of our investigation. Stay tuned.

We are all gear heads to the max, we love this stuff. (But can he play? Oh yes we all play a ton, about 150 years worth.)

Larry Behm

This should be very interesting.

The bottom line here was there is no substitute for good gear. Amps and speakers and pickups and guitars have their own voice, the trick is to match them up with each other to achieve the best sound, to you.

Solid state has it's sound, tubes have their sound, not bad in any case just different.

For me the more knobs the better, I can shade the different freq's to my taste, thus the Walker.

All of the other amps sounded just fine to me though.

The Accoustic Image with the Telonics open back cab was terrific. The Telonics sounded great with every amp we tried. Dave and the boys have found a winner.

Gear, you love it or hate it, we all love the chase.

Larry Behm

Man, that was a good time today. Basically, a bunch of us Portland guys had a super amp party and played scientist, jumped betwen my various guitars, etc. In the room we had the following amps:

Webb 6-14e
Sarno V8 Octal Pre
Prototype Milkman hybrid chasis
Walker Stereo Steel
Milkman Mini
TC Furlong CB-12 cabinet
Telonics Extension Cabinet
Blackwidow 15" Cabinet

There were some amazing combinations. One of my personal favorites were the Sho-Bud Pro-1 through the Milkman Mini with 1.5 PBR's in me. Just inspiring, thick, big tone with just the slightest and perfect amount of breakup. I'm still a big fan of my Furlong + Sarno V8 rig (thankfully for my wallet). And I finally got to experience first hand why a Stereo Steel is a staple steel guitar classic.

The Milkman Hybrid prototype was very impressive. I look forward to hearing the finished product. Really, that's a winning amp as is. Since it was just the chassis, we had to use a reverb pedal and got to play with different speakers, etc. It sounded awesome through the Telonics speakers. The Milkman tube preamp stage along with the Class D power section is going to be a winner.

I too was very impressed with the Acoustic Image amp. You can't beat that amp on size, and it sounded fantastic with the Telonics cabinet. Really good tone and good tone control options.

My take home for the day.... lesson re-learned..... don't forget the importance of the role your speaker plays in your set up. Comparing the JBL E-130, to the Telonics, to the Blackwidow, significantly different color out of the same amps.

Fortunately for my wallet, I ended today still loving my amps.

Thanks for coming over guys and sharing your toys dudes. Tim Marcus and Steve Lipsey, thanks for letting us Portland guys play with your magnificent creation. A good day of NW brotherhood for the love of steel. When's the next one????

Left to Right:
Bob Muller, Tucker Jackson, Steve Lipsey, Scott Hay, Franklin Hay, Lynn Stafford, Larry Behm, Dave Grafe.







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We ran out of time before we ran out of gear combinations, and with few exceptions I was able to quickly dial in a completely satisfying sound.

We had Scott's "new" D10 PP, "old" S10 Emmons, and S10 Shobud (two-hole pullers) to play with. We used the Holy Grail reverb and a Goodrich pot VP for most everything to maintain consistency in our comparisons.

We mixed and matched various instruments, speakers, amps and pres, some were better suited to others but for the most part they all sounded good but with their own character, which one might expect in such a collection of esoteric hardware.

The difference between the tube and solid state units was notable in every case, but all of the solid state rigs sounded really good in their own right, delivering more of the tone of the guitars themselves and less of the electronics. When compared using the same amplifiers the BW speaker definitely sounded darkest but by no means was that a bad thing, the E130 brightest, and of the several options the Telonics 15" with an open-back cabinet got the people's choice award this time out.

As expected the Milkman 30 watt broke into distortion the earliest, but had a great warmth up until that point. The 200 watt class-D powered prototype hybrid had a good sound as well - especially through the Telonics 15" - but the solid state amp gave it an entirely different voice than the smaller, all-tube Milkman Mini.

I don't know the model of Lynn's Acoustic Image but those of you who want a small powerful amp with built-in digital reverb might want to take a look in that direction. It is the small black box on top of the Milkman Mini in the third photo above, and you can see the aluminum bracket Lynn made to hang it on the side of his seat. Great sounding pre, comprehensive EQ, decent reverb and a boatload of power. Strictly solid Jackson as they say...

It was a gas to hang with some of the brothers and run so much top-flight gear through the paces, thanks to Tim and Steve and Scott and all, that was a real good time

Oh yeah, and we all played in our socks

The folks have summed it up pretty well...note that the Milkman Hybrid amp chassis in the picture (on top of the Milkman combo) is a prototype Tim sent over for testing, we just plugged it into a variety of speakers for testing, the final amp will be in a combo form with speaker and reverb pan...it has the same Milkman tube preamp circuit design, EQ and tube reverb that are in the Milkman all-tube amps (some different components), but the power section is 2x200 watt Class-D solid state.

One tube amp and a bunch of high-end hybrid/solid-state gear....the Milkman Pedal Steel Mini (40 watts) seemed to capture the hearts of most folks there, great, warm, punchy tone. (Of course there are other, much more powerful, Milkman amps if you don't like any tube sizzle in your tone when you push it, I actually do prefer the tube contribution at breakup point).

For the other amps, the basic "sound" was very similar for all of them - compared to tubes, somewhat dry and clean...but there was a real difference to be found - in the preamps. Lots of different tones to be had from the various approaches to EQ...and each player had a favorite. E.g., Scott preferred the Sarno V-8 two-knob preamp, easy to work with (compared to his old Webb), others liked the extensive parametric EQ of other amps as giving the most flexibility...personally, I thought the perfect balance was the Milkman Hybrid amp 3-band EQ, much more control than the two-knob (meatier sound), but much simpler than the fancier parametric EQs...some of that tone was due to the tube preamp and tube reverb with S-S power section, presumably...

There also seemed to be a number of "perfect" combinations of player->pickup->steel->preamp->amp->speaker, where changing out any one of those factors was noticeably less good...so I guess the "search for tone" is an individual quest, that we each must do for ourselves...

Tubes vs. solid-state is still (and always will be) a question of individual needs and taste...they both can sound great...just different.

For myself, I'm likely to settle on the Milkman Pedal Steel Mini (40 watts, 35 lbs total, 2x6L6, Telonics 12") for my alt-country band (some great tube sizzle), and a Milkman Hybrid (400 watts, 27 lbs total) for my classic country band (unlimited clean headroom) and general grab 'n go...the Hybrid is likely to be the least expensive amp in the Milkman Steel family....having the same preamp in both will just make it easier to get it dialed in, regardless of which amp I'm using...

Actually Tim's mini & his hybrid have different preamps (even though the tubes may be the same). But anyway.....where's the video you guys shot?

very cool!

The Hybrid seems to be close to being ready for prime time. I know there is an overheating issue that I will address when Steve returns it to me next week.

As Jay pointed out - yes, the Mini and Hybrid have slightly different components because I am trying to keep the cost down. I am not sure what the final version will have yet, or what the price will be.

Thanks so much for including Milkman in the fun!

Thanks Steve and Scott for putting this together, we all learned something and first and foremost got to hang with our steel buddies for a couple of hours.

Tucker that means you my friend.

Larry Behm

Thanks Larry.

What a deal... to get to play the world's best guitars through the best amps and speakers and to get to compare them side by side.

I think some of us were hoping that we would hear one amp or speaker that would be the clear winner, but that didn't really happen. The solid state guys walked out comfortable that their gear could hang with the tube amps, and the tube guys were convinced they had selected the best equipment to get their tone.

Having said that, there were a few moments in the shoot-out when I quit blabbing with the guy next to me and said "what is that combination?"

1) The Sho-Bud Pro I thorough the Milkman Mini was really something special. The perfect marriage of pickup, guitar and amp. It stopped us all dead in our tracks.

2) The Telonics 15" speaker in an open-backed cabinet was just wonderful. No matter what we plugged into it, the outcome was pleasing. Surprisingly, it was quite different than the 12" Telonics (which was also a killer speaker), and not just on low-register C6 stuff. I was not expecting there to be such a dramatic difference on, say, typical E9 parts, but there was. I think most of us liked that 15" Telonics over the other speaker choices.

3) The Walker and Acoustic Image solid state amps were as warm in their own way as the Sarno and Milkman products. I would not have guessed that without having the chance to hear those amps in side by side comparisons. Some amazing engineering.

And there was no surprise on the Milkman hybrid; I expected it to sound phenomenal and it did (Tim's going to sell a million of these). And we can't leave out the the Sarno V8 with TC Furlong cab, even though everybody already knows how great that stuff is. We're really lucky to have these builders who are also steel players making boutique equipment that is so thoroughly aimed at making us smile.

Your comments are right on the money Tucker.

Larry Behm

Tucker- well said...

re the Telonics -
I'm convinced that, as Dave Beatty of Telonics tries to tell us to believe, that the small Mini cabinet (where the 12" was mounted) was the reason that the 12" was so different than the 15". That huge Telonics cab that the 15" was in surely gave it room to breathe...I've played my Mini through the 15" in the Sideman cabinet, and it didn't sound as different as with the two very different cabinet sizes at our amplest, (at least as well as I can remember it)...

I was actually just trying the Mini with both a 12" (in the Mini cabinet) and 15" (in the Sideman cabinet) at the same time, which did increase the soundstage, but didn't really sound different than either alone, and just decreased the power in each, for no real volume change...I didn't really focus on the difference between the 12" and the 15" alone at that time, though...

Both the 12" and the 15" sound just fine in the smaller cabinets, but the 15" in the big cabinet sure had something more going for it...I would be curious to hear a 12" in a big cabinet...

re the Mini -
I've had a Milkman 85 watt Pedal Steel Amp, a 50 watt Sideman, and a 40 watt Mini - the nature of the tone is similar in all of them, but each step up in wattage (and corresponding cabinet size) results in a clearly "bigger" tone....probably a lot of reasons, including cabinet size, output transformer size, pure wattage impact on clean headroom, etc. The 85 watt was the "take no prisoners" amp....the 40 watt Mini is the "pretty as can be, and cuts through with some sizzle when it has to" amp...Sideman in between those two...

Steve is there a 85 watt MM in town, to hear?

Larry Behm

I don't think so....some Sideman amps, and my Mini...not sure where the closest 85 watt is....Tim will have to chime in on that...

I told Mike Eisler that on a scale of 1-10 all of these amps were an 8 or above. Nothing fell of the cliff. No substitute for good gear and we had it all there.

Larry Behm

Thanks a lot for doing this and documenting it so thoroughly guys.
I’d like to know if anyone is changing their rig based on the results?

By the way...Jason Montgomery and I also have Sideman amps here in Portland that you all would be welcome to take for a spin, if anyone would like to...mine has two-knob reverb and a Tweed second (guitar) channel, Jason's (he gets it this week) has single-knob reverb, tremolo, and a Deluxe-type second channel...

I expect that I'll be selling the Sideman and getting a Hybrid....I'll still have the Mini for tube amp goodness...

It seems that there aren't any 85 watt Pedal Steel Amps within shouting distance at the moment...

this should be showing up on my doorstep next week!

Oh no.
Tiny Mo went to the dark side..............

Jason and Jeff please step out and come play at the steel jams, bring Steve and Tucker with you. You are part of the steel community here and WE all would like to get to know you better.

It is times like this, (Wed amp swap) that help us as a brotherhood to get to know each other as well as the comparison of the gear.

The gear gets us there the brotherhood unites us.

Matt, Dennis, Dean, Wayne, Neil, Ray, Steve T, Steve H, Todd, Larry W that goes for you too.

No one was willing to spend money on other gear as all the gear is top notch, but it was good to compare them, we always need to be open minded, something just might sneak up on you from out of no where and GRAB you.

Just saying

Larry Behm

Jason Montgomery wrote:this should be showing up on my doorstep next week!

right after I use it for my gigs this weekend!

Tim, you're probably only going to use half anyway. Just send him the first half now and the 2nd half after the weekend.

Go Jason! Love brown tolex.

Am I the only one who took pictures, etc last week?

But I didn't get a picture of you playing Scott - you were the touchstone by which all of the amps were measured!