Knee lever 'ID'

James Brown · Post by **James Brown** » 16 Nov 2002 5:13 pm

Most tabs refer to foot pedals as A,B,C etc.
Is there a standard for lettering the Knee levers? I have a Carter S10-3/5.

John Bresler · Post by **John Bresler** » 16 Nov 2002 5:40 pm

There never seems to be a "Standard" among steelers, but the "E" lever usually refers to lowering 4&8, the "F" lever raises 4&8, the "D" lever lowers 2, the "X" or "v5" lowers 5 & sometimes 10. I've also seen tab that specifies the "D" as raising 4&8 and the "F" as lowering 6 a full tone. I also know of some tab that uses "G" for lowering 2.

The point is that since there is no standard notation, any notation is correct if you know the pedal and knees that the tab refers to.

My $.02 worth.

JB

Rex Thomas · Post by **Rex Thomas** » 16 Nov 2002 6:13 pm

It should be:
LKL, LKV, LKR, RKL, RKR... on your gtr., for example. But I agree with John; I don't know of a 'standard' either.

Mike Delaney · Post by **Mike Delaney** » 17 Nov 2002 11:15 am

While I'm probably not the guy to do it, being relatively new to the steel, we forumites should devise a standard and use it for all our examples.

On TAB, "R" and "L" next to the fret number seems to be less confusing to me than anything else.

For general talk, wouldn't it make sense to name the pedals for what they do note-wise? The lever that raises 4&8 would be the F lever because it raises the E's to F. The lever that lowers 4&8 could be the E lever because the note is an Eb. The lever that lowers the 2nd string could be the D lever. The lever that raises 1&7 could be the G lever.

I'm not saying that this is the only way we could do it, or how it should be done. But we need some of you old veterans to get in here, and let's standardize this thing once and for all. Better communication means better learning!

James Brown · Post by **James Brown** » 17 Nov 2002 11:41 am

Mike, this seems like a good way to "tab" the knee levers.

Post by **Joey Ace** » 17 Nov 2002 12:11 pm

The answer to you original question is "no", James.

The above comments are correct, but I must add Jeff Newman (who has published more steel tab than probably anyone) refers to the Lever that lowers the Es as the "D Lever", and the one that raises the Es as the "F Lever".

As a beginner it is important that you memorise their function. Start with the "raise Es" and "lower Es" levers.

When you look at a new tab, think to yourself, "oh, this guy uses a "x(whatever)" to indicate lowering (raising) Es.

When you try another guitar, think, "oh, this setup raises the Es with RKL (or whatever) .

BTW, have you memorised the functions of the A,B,C pedals? You should. Quiz yourself away from the Steel. What pedal raises the G#s a half step?, etc .

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 17 Nov 2002 1:24 pm

No. That's the great appeal of systems like Jimmie Crawford's Musym-Tab that, instead of calling it a "D" or "F" lever, for instance (or even worse, saying RKL, LKR, etc. when we all have them in different places!), it shows a "b" if the string is lowered a 1/2 step, "bb" if lowered a whole step, "#" if raised a 1/2, "X" if raised a whole, etc.

Then, as long as you know what pedals and KLs on your guitar do what, you just use whatever you need to to get that change. It makes so much sense, why don't I do it myself, huh?

Winnie Winston · Post by **Winnie Winston** » 18 Nov 2002 12:41 am

Thank you JIm for mentioning Mu-sym-tab.
It was a brillant idea that few ever understood. Whenever I tab out stuff I use it-- makes all the sense in the world. Want to raise string 5 a whole tone on the3rd fret? No need to think "A" or "C" just put a double sharp next to it (i.e., 3X). Want to 1/2 pedal it? 3# will do.
It is a great way to tab and I'm sorry I didn't think of it when I did my book.
Bless Jimmie for doing it, and boo on those who don't see the most elegant way to tab.

JW

Lynn Kasdorf · Post by **Lynn Kasdorf** » 18 Nov 2002 10:10 am

I like the mu-sym-tab method as well, but it is a little cumbersome in speech. Much easier to say "your A & F".

I personally use Jeff Newman's system, where the D lever lowers the e's and the E lever lowers the D#. I think it is just too confusing to try to match the lever name to the note change. It is only a coincidence that the F lever raises E's to F's. If you use that convention, then we would have the "Eb" lever...

I think his system is based on the evolutionary order of the pedal/lever changes. After the ABC pedals, the first lever in use (I think!) was the lever to lower the E's- so it became the next letter- "D".

The next most common change was to drop the 2nd string to a D. So it was the next letter, "E".

The lever to raise E's to F came along later ,apparently used first on the song D-I-V-O-R-C-E by Tammy Wynette- Pete Drake, I think or maybe Lloyd Greene. (this according to Jeff). So it took on the next letter, "F".

I once went to a Jeff Newman seminar at Billy Cooper's shop where there was mass confusion because Billy Cooper had his own lever nomenclature, and his students all expected Jeff to use it. So when Jeff would say "the D lever lowers the E's" people would say "no it doesn't!"...what a mess...

Mike Delaney · Post by **Mike Delaney** » 19 Nov 2002 8:21 am

Jim, Winnie, & Lynn-I agree wholeheartedly with r&l or b&# next to the strings on the TAB. I don't know that I ever ran into the one with the flats and sharps yet, but it wouldn't be confusing at all.

"As a matter of speech" is another thing. The valves on a trumpet or the pads on a sax are universally named, and we should do this for the steel as well. Most of our communication via the forum is written words, and if we had some kind of standard to go by it would help (me anyway).

A hacker like me isn't going to get anybody's attention. But if it were Winnie, or JayDee, or Jeff Newman...somebody who has a reputation in the steel world, we could agree on one system to use here. Bobby Lee could post a permanent chart, and we could say "this is what we use on the forum." As it is now, it takes me longer to figure out how what somebody posts relates to my own guitar than it does to learn the lick.

James Brown · Post by **James Brown** » 19 Nov 2002 8:55 am

Great Idea Mike.Standards are a great for beginners like me!!

Lynn Kasdorf · Post by **Lynn Kasdorf** » 19 Nov 2002 9:04 am

The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from!

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"You call that thing a guitar?"

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 19 Nov 2002 3:49 pm

I always take a piece of tab and figure out which of my pedals/knee levers corresponds to the raises or lowers listed in the tab and write RKL, RKR etc. under the bottom line where the change is made. That way, I don't worry about a "standard" for listing the levers.

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Carter D10 9p/10k
Richard Sinkler