Anybody with knee problems from playing?

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 21 Sep 2002 6:40 am

After playing my jam gigs last weekend, I woke up with a really sore right knee. The location of the pain was on the ligament at 4 o'clock in relation to the kneecap, looking down from my vantage point. When I pushed on that particular section, it was painful and swollen. I just wonder if it happened from too long on the guitar as we do 1 hr.+ sets sometimes and my leg is cocked upward on the vol. pedal, which is a Goodrich L-120 by the way. The inflammation went away in a couple of days, but I'm worried about long-term injury. Any medical guys and girls like to chirp in here?

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 21 Sep 2002 7:09 am

Hey John--that's a drag for sure. Can you confirm that is internal as opposed to bruising from lever to knee contact? I have made some wood lever covers that slip over the levers to round over the hard edges because of growing irritation at the side of my knee--like a deep bruise.

David Biagini · Post by **David Biagini** » 21 Sep 2002 7:55 am

Since I returned to playing pedal steel a few months ago I've noticed that my knees and ankles are always sore and they're getting worse not better. This is worrisome. I keep hoping that I just need to get used to it but it's not happening. Never had this problem when I was only playing non-pedal steel. Don't know what this means if it means anything. Could just be a coincidence.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 21 Sep 2002 8:02 am

Reece always used foam padding on his knee levers, and he put them on one of my MSA's. Works good if you have only 5 knee levers, as you don't have to slide around. That might help.....al

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 21 Sep 2002 8:24 am

If you're gonna play that much B6th you might as well get the lever lock installed!

James Winwood · Post by **James Winwood** » 21 Sep 2002 8:50 am

I had the same problem. It was the volume pedal. I just stopped using one and haven't looked back. But then again the music I play doesn't call for it. I like keeping all of the dynamics in my fingers.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 21 Sep 2002 8:55 am

Same thing, except it's at 12-o-clock on the knee cap and I have to stretch it out, out the right side of the guitar, between songs. It was bad enough last month that I had trouble getting up and down so I went and had acupuncture. The 'chiro' also had me doing stretches, on my back, where I pulled my heel up to my butt and held it there. Big improvement. Have I ever told you how much I'm enjoying "middle age"?

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 21 Sep 2002 11:07 am

Maybe it's from something you did after the gig?

Dennis

John Vaughan · Post by **John Vaughan** » 21 Sep 2002 8:32 pm

John,
There are a number of causal possibilities including age, weight, previous injuries, etc., besides playing steel. Was this an acute onset or did you have twinges of pain before? If you can position yourself so that the knee is slightly extended it may help. Be sure that the angle between the upper and lower leg is no greater than 90 degrees in any case. Getting your leg slightly extended will take some pressure off the knee cap and underlying tissues. This may require some modification to the knee levers such as extending them out toward you rather than having them come straight down.
JV

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 21 Sep 2002 10:08 pm

It's very simple. Padded knee levers are a must. Do not injure yourself further by allowing those chisel bites {right angle edges) to continuously chomp at the knees. I use the firm foam that is used on the hand grip of crutches. Then cover with your favorite colored tape. I recognized the damaging effect of knee levers years ago. Settle for nothing less than absolute comfort in making contact with the knee levers.

Bill H.

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 22 Sep 2002 5:55 am

Well, I've got it this morning again. I don't think that it's the sharpness of the knee lever because the pain is deeper in the tendon or ligament. I just recently (few months) changed volume pedals from an Emmons pedal which was higher than the Goodrich. Maybe it was that. Chas, was that 12 o'clock from YOUR vantage point or looking at it externally? With me it's slightly to the right of the top of the kneecap. I'll check the Gray's anatomy for the exact name. Had another thought. The Emmons pedal allowed my leg to go in further to the front of the guitar. The Goodrich does not, allowing a less than 90 degree bend in the leg. I'll pull the tabs off the pedal rack today and see if that helps. [This message was edited by John Lacey on 22 September 2002 at 06:57 AM.][This message was edited by John Lacey on 22 September 2002 at 07:11 AM.]

Steve Kritz · Post by **Steve Kritz** » 22 Sep 2002 6:03 am

John, In May of this year,I had arthopscopic surgery on my left knee.Found severe arthritus that inturn tore and damaged the cartledge.Looking at a relacement in 2 to 5 years.Early stages of arthritus could be the cause....Steve

Steve Miller · Post by **Steve Miller** » 22 Sep 2002 9:10 am

John, been there. I used play with a band that would rehearse without breaks for hours and it really took a toll on my knees and left ankle. If your getting up there in years like me (50) you need to take a break once in a while.

I have the L120 pedal too and I have raised the back end of the pedal and the height of my seat. This seems to have helped. Good Luck!

sgm

Dave Stewart · Post by **Dave Stewart** » 22 Sep 2002 10:12 am

John,

I was having some pain in my left knee a couple years back while playing pedal steel. I joined a health club and that took care of the problem.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 22 Sep 2002 10:56 pm

John, it's 12 o clock from an external, right in front of me, vantage point. Basically the top of the knee cap. For a while there I was having difficulty lifting my foot to push the brake pedal in the car, which made driving around in traffic, a lot more exciting.

I was going to try to explain what the Dr said to me, but even I couldn't understand what I just wrote so suffice it to say, the stretches I mentioned above were painful, but they seemed to help. It broke down something to do with the internal fibers of the something or other that were compensating for the frammerwhatzit connected to the reallykeen...

Maybe it's from something you did after the gig?

I wish.......I think those days are over, they're looking at the bass player, if they're looking at all.

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 23 Sep 2002 4:16 am

I wrote to my friend, Forumite and chiropractor Darren Sillito about the problem and he graciously replied:"First of all it is possible that what you described to
me (the change in pedals and the relative angle of the
knee) may be contributing to the knee pain. That would
give the cause more of a mechanical basis. It is
possible that you may have a high riding patella
(Patella alta)and the relative change in knee angle
may be causing a patella tracking change which in turn
irritates the underlying bursa causing swelling which
in turn irritates pain sensitive nerve endings.
Generally a small change like you mentioned would take
time to manifest itself. So you are right that it may
have taken a few weeks to actually be a problem. It is
also possible that you may have an underlying
condition (ie. arthritis) which means the knee may
have already had a predisposition to instability.
If the new pedal has a different taper to it you may
also be working the pedal a little differently. You
may be using muscles more or less in different areas
and may actually be subconsciously contracting the
quadraceps muscles more than usual. contraction of
the quad muscles will enhance a tracking problem which
leads to the irritation.
So add up the mechanical issues the possible
underlying instability and the fact that you play for
4 to 5 hours at a time and it might explain the knee
trouble.
Now after saying all that , what to do for it?

1. Make the changes you mentioned with the pedal
position
2. Try turning your right foot slightly outward (to
the right)on the volume pedal. This may take a little
pressure of of the patella area
3. After the Jam, whether your knee is swollen or not,
use an ice pack for 20 mins. on and 1 hour off then
you can repeat again if you so desire. Also elevate
the knee while icing if possible.
4. the use of a anti - inflammatory (ibupfofen)is up
to you but if you ice it good almost to where it feels
numb you will accomplish both the preventing of or
decrease in swelling and it will have a pain killing
effect.
5. Last of all it may have taken a while to develop so
it may take a while to resolve. You may have to keep
treating the symptoms until any changes take effect.
If the trouble persists for any extended period of
time or it actually worsens then you may consider
consulting a health care provider for an examination.
Otherwise it sounds like a mechanical irritation that
may take some time to resolve." Yesterday (Sunday) I decided to try the Emmons pedal and I did. Fortunately, Nutrol spray killed the scratchiness in the pot, so that helped. Today the swelling and pain is virtually gone, so maybe that has a lot to do with it. I'm posting this in the hope that anybody else afflicted with this will find some answers and comfort in it. It's a scary thing to have one of your playing members not on the team with you.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 24 Sep 2002 4:05 am

Most players whom I've have talked to who have a problem with this type of pain can solve it by sitting closer to the guitar. The boney knee area can be sensitive to pressure, and a more comfortable method of operating knee levers is to use the area behind the knee (about 6" back from the front of the kneecap) to operate the levers. Admittedly, the guitars with "clusters", and some of those that mount levers near the center of the guitar (rather than near the back apron), make this impossible. In those cases, padding the levers might give some releif.

Bill Fall · Post by **Bill Fall** » 24 Sep 2002 5:27 am

The problem John & Chas have described, and which afflicted me for years, is not some kind of externally caused bruising or irritation from knee levers, but is accute ligament or tendon pain. For me it became so intense that I'd sometimes have to stop on stage in the middle of a song to straighten my right leg for relief. (I did develop the problem in the left knee as well, but no where near as severely.)

I'm certainly not qualified to provide a medical diagnosis, but I surmised the condition was somehow brought on by years of daily practice for long hours, having the knee flexed at a relatively fixed angle, without relief or change.

A sports doctor prescribed exercises of repeatedly rolling up onto the balls of my feet and back, but this did little to help. What ultimately corrected the problem -- along with a parcel of arthritic-like chronic hip and joint aches, as well as severe tendonitis up the side of my right calf -- was taking the Coral Calcium advertised on TV. Not a lick of tendon or ligament pain since. And most of my joint pains have become insignificant. The stuff really works! For me, at least.

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 24 Sep 2002 6:57 pm

After some 46 years of pedal playing....I've ended up with hypertension, sleep apnea, hemroids, kidney stones, gall stone surgery, swollen legs and ankles, attention deficit disorder, six former wives, and I cain't get a music playing job nowhere no how! I'm wondering if'n I'd been better off to have come down with knee problems?
I'm concerned if this is a result of switching over from my 6 pedal BIGSBY to my early '70's PP Emmons........or the result of having gone to playing lap steel.[This message was edited by Ray Montee on 24 September 2002 at 07:58 PM.][This message was edited by Ray Montee on 24 September 2002 at 10:51 PM.]

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 25 Sep 2002 12:01 am

Jeez Ray, sounds like you qualify for handicapped parking. I've had the kidney stone, that was an experience, although I did enjoy the Demerol. I've got the 3 ex (psychos) wives and of course there were some very enjoyable moments in between the dodging flying objects moments. I think the problem is switching from the Bigsby to the Emmons, everyone knows that quitting Bigsbys causes hemerroids.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 25 Sep 2002 2:24 am

Yes my knees ache, mostly just from walking around for the last 54 years, well the first year was crawling around I suppose.

I am adding 1/2 pipe insulation to my levers, I hate the "Chisel edges" on my boney knees, especially LKL which I have relocated several times .

It's bad enough to play bad but when you have to play bad and it hurts as well thats just too much !

tp

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 25 Sep 2002 4:37 am

A few years ago, there was a booth at the convention that was selling clip on knee lever paddles. You might pursue that person or construct them on your own with heavy aluminum sheet metal. I went that route with my guitar.
Dennis

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 25 Sep 2002 5:24 am

Despite all the suggestions about padding the knee levers, I do believe that it's an ergonomic problem derived from my change in position due to a new volume pedal. I will either have to more closely match the emmons pedal setup or go back to it.

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 25 Sep 2002 12:02 pm

Charles Smith.......thanks for the input. Now, atleast, I have a different perspective.
Was one of your ex's named "Nancy", or "Kathy", or "Sylvia"? Oh well,.....
Does anyone have a BIGSBY seat cushion for sale?

Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 26 Sep 2002 3:34 pm

Fortunately I´m not affected by knee problems but I read this post out of curiosity and noticed that several guys mentioned they actually push their knee levers with their knees. Now... I always thought the term "knee lever" was a bit inaccurate since the way I sit at my guitar, I always hit them with my thighs just above the knees. And feel very comfortable doing so. Up to now, I thought this was the only possible way to do it, nobody ever told me anything different (remember this is still a developing country for pedal steel). I would never think of actually hitting the levers with my KNEES (in that way I´d also be sitting way too far from the guitar, or so it would seem to me.) Now tell me, is this bad technique I´ve got or am I doing the right thing in order to protect my knees?
I do have some spinal problems and that means, whenever I sit too low I will get serious back ache real fast. I need to raise the seat as high as possible (that´s why I detest any kind of non-adjustable seat). I have found this also puts the right foot in a more relaxed position on the volume pedal. Could it be that some of you who have trouble with that sit at the steel too low, thus forcing the right foot into an unnaturally bent position. Anyway, I´m not a medical person, just some thoughts.

Regards, Joe H.